2014年12月30日星期二

警民關係的路向

曾偉雄一向被視為鷹派,也給人改了禿鷹的外號。作為警隊的頭頭,路綫強硬,有甚麽不妥?我寫這一篇是回應讀者萬章在警渣一文,提出警隊管治走下坡的感慨。

禿應這稱號相信來自不滿警隊處理示威的手法和曾偉雄多次在警方記者招待會自己發言及答問時,措詞強硬所引致。本來除暴安良,警察打擊罪案態度堅定強硬,應該是市民之福,住在一個罪案率低又安全的城市,有理由反對嗎?講來講去都是因為過去十多年來警察的權威受到挑戰及挫折,導致累積負面情緒,警隊希望自己的頭頭是個硬淨肯撐自己的人,曾偉雄這方面就做得到。曾偉雄不是公關人才,講説話一向並不圓滑,總是硬邦邦的,內部受到擁護,對外卻受不少人的非議。這又是一個根本矛盾的問題,因政治的爭取和爭抝,把警察夾在中間,使警察受到示威者的敵視,而滋生這一連串關係惡化問題。當然,不單是示威者,也有人從媒體報導及電視畫面見到的場面,警察如何如何追打示威者,只需要有幾個警察這樣做就足以成為焦點。警察質素下降嗎?那又未必,現在不是小學畢業可以考警察的年代。隨著專上教育的普及,投考警察的人的學歷都提升了,警察訓練學校也升格為警察學院,故此,質素又怎會下跌呢?除非教授方法改變得鬆散,否則都是那些課程,變化未必很大。當然,我也不掌握實際情況,雖然我以前也應朋友要求提供過實際案件作教材用。我相信課程應加強人權方面的知識才足以應付現在的社會環境。新的一代學歷提高了,舊的一代又怎辦?很多職級的公務人員都存在這些歷史問題,唯有對這些舊一代的差人再培訓一下,調節他們的心態,以迎合社會的變化。

我們不得不冷靜想一下,撇除示威遊行,政見不同的人的衝突,警察處理其他事情,可有人會辱罵他們。如果沒有的話,那就可以印證他們成為政治磨心的看法了。社會養成辱罵的風氣,就算是非政治的事件也會引致辱罵,譬如交通違例時,被控的司機發難罵警的例子也不少。

由六七暴動至九七過渡,警察的形象和質素變化很大,是很正面的變化。但由議會中的激進,伸延至街上抗爭的勇武,警察質素就算沒有下降,市民的要求卻愈來愈多,那不純粹是警察的問題,市民有責任改善警民關係嗎?我當然覺得是雙方都要下功夫去解決的事。假如一個左青龍右白虎的紋身漢在街上對警察辱罵,或者一班黑社會在街上圍警察,市民可接受嗎?如果不可接受,那麽普通市民或學生,辱罵及包圍警察又如何?兩者不能比較抑或是雙重標凖?假如那人是大奸大惡,譬如張子強、葉繼歡在暗巷給警察打,有市民會去投訴科投訴嗎?張子強夾硬給大陸審他在香港犯的勒索案而處決,有幾多人心中覺得他死有餘辜,又有幾多人覺得大陸干預香港司法而吭聲呢?這又是不是雙重標凖的例子?失控的警察及罵警的市民,雙方都應該反思自己有沒有做錯。

眼前可以怎樣改善警民關係呢?我覺得曾偉雄應該儘量避免向公眾發話。他應該盡量減少面對傳媒,如果警方有高調的記者招待會,最好就不用曾偉雄出席主持,由總警司至副警務處長主持已經足夠。不論那些罵曾偉雄的人罵得是否公道抑或帶徧見,已經不是講慈母慈父那種矯扭造作的言論可以彌補關係,倒不如減少讓人攻訐的機會更勝算,劉進圖案的記者招待會已是很好的例子。如果他還徧徧要高姿態地展示威信,前綫警員又會成為針對的對象。到了曾偉雄明年退休後,希望這種成見可以進一步消除。至於市民也有責任盡一點力,這不是單方面的問題,互相尊重就會帶來良性的循環,社會的撕裂也會得以緩和。

一年將盡,這是我在新的一年其中一個願望。

48 則留言:

  1. 標少, 仇恨警察, 普遍性因樣本少不敢說, 但仇恨度, 在我工作的地方觀察所得, 就直到破表水平, 整個佔領期間, 可見識到他們的恨勁, 基本上, 他們眼中, 好像警察會呼吸, 也是消耗地球空氣的惡徒一般, 我沒有標少的勇氣和他們理論, 不過聽了差不多八十天, 也試試歸納一下他們仇警的觀點, 望和標少交流一下
    1, 作威作福, 不少次聽他們批評, 他們認識的警察平時自高自大, 話自己係警察就點點點, 但抄牌查身份就最多最賣力, 覺得他們不知所謂
    2. 辦案不擇手段, 這是一位前警員的觀點, 他說七警打人見慣不怪, 他說還有更多雜察房的黑手段你們一般市民不清楚不知道, 話香港警察和公安無什麼分別, 擺出正義形象笑死人
    3. 政治理念, 覺得差人阻住香港人爭民主, 所以類似林慧思邵種事, 就鋤強扶弱, 警察對家一定全對好出口烏氣

    或許這些負面觀感由來已久, 佔中, 只是原本悶燒的火苗, 變成核爆

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  2. 你迅速留言反映你的強烈感受。

    我一向敢言,我寫自己看法,何懼之有?訴諸盲目情緒解決不到問題,單指責他人也無用。我覺得自己客觀,要反駁,我抹兵厲馬,隨時候教。冰封三尺,非一日之寒。既然封冰,就要破冰。

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  3. 我不敢說仇警同事無的放矢, 或許他們生命中真的有一次, 或數次遇過以上問題的警員, 執法人員一點半點不合格的表現, 人可會記恨, 有人一分鐘, 有人一輩子, 他們態度強硬, 語詞激烈, 不要以偏蓋全的諺語, 不用出口也知全無作用, 但聽多了, 也覺心煩, 故借一機會說一說
    不過比較不解的是, 那位前警員同事, 對以前伙計不以為然, 言辭輕蔑, 使我不解, 或者內部遇到什麼惡人惡事記恨至此, 標少比我接觸警員多, 你有何看法?又有現/退役員警交流一下?

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    1. 或者我脫節了。一個人的看法可以凖確反映實況嗎?

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    2. 我也覺得那同事是極端例子,無代表性,只是好奇這個極端是如何煉成的

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  4. 這種奇怪情況好像愈來愈常見,標少能否解說兩句?早前也有一單警方(?)申請將涉案男童交社署監管。

    http://news.mingpao.com/ins/連儂牆畫花被捕14歲女童%20暫時判入女童院/web_tc/article/20141230/s00001/1419944698988

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    1. 好希望睇到標少的解說~!
      一睇到直覺係離X哂譜! 要聽聽專業意見消怒氣~

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    2. 警方會申請C&P我唔覺得出奇, 因為要製造白色恐怖嘛, 但個官竟然會判佢入女童院等報告先出奇. 聽講係李唯治審?

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    3. I want to make a few observations:

      1. many Hong Kongers nowadays let their own feelings (or even ignorance) dominate over proper reasoning. Whatever the girl's political views are, criminal damage is criminal damage, being arrested is being arrested, and being brought to court is being bought to court, etc.. It enters the system anyway, despite of the police's motives (if any), that comes within the ambit of powers. Please do not commit the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc - it does not naturally follow that anything thereafter happened has anything to do with her political views, e.g. it cannot be said that the magistrate must have disapproved such political views. Had she been vandalizing DAB's posters, would you think otherwise?

      And EVEN IF what follows is BECAUSE OF her expression of political views, the correct redress is through proper procedures, applications, and appeals, BUT NOT mere feelings or expressions. (Whether such procedures, etc. are fair is just another matter.) I'm NOT saying you may not have feelings, BUT I think feelings are always secondary to proper reasoning.

      2. Then, what is proper reasoning? We have to ask (the right) questions and find the (credible) answers. Here I ask:
      (a) what are the powers of the magistrate to grant such application? Can the DSW decline? (This certainly requires legal knowledge, I suggest: Protection of Children and Juveniles Ordinance Cap 213?)
      (b) what are the facts of the girl's case? why did the magistrate think the father has no ability to take care of the girl? (For this, we lack sufficient information: except that the father was aurally-challenged, can this be a significant part of the case? Did the girl do something else we do not yet know but is unacceptable to her own welfare and hence also alert the magistrate?)
      (c) if one has many grudges with this, what can he/she do? e.g. petition online?! (what a means...)

      PHLI

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    4. 那女孩母親在那兒?你知道嗎?
      那女孩幾多歳?你知道嗎?
      那女孩有幾耐無返屋企?你知道嗎?
      那女孩有幾耐無返學?你知道嗎?
      那女孩有幾多次報失記錄?你知道嗎?
      那女孩有乜野刑事記錄?你知道嗎?
      那女孩上過兒童庭幾多次?你知道嗎?
      那女孩第一次性經驗係幾多歳?你知道嗎?
      那女孩有幾多次墮胎記錄?你知道嗎?

      唔知!那就閉上你那無知的蠢口!

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    5. Stephen, HEI, 匿名,

      PHLI解釋得很清楚,我絕對同意他的看法,代表女童的律師所講白色恐怖太輕率。

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    6. 今早看到學民的聲明, 嚇我一跳, 閉門聆訊的案件, 公眾看不到申請內容, 不知理據, 這些小朋友想干擾司法獨立? 如果民主抗爭的人被輕判, 那些愛字頭的人就在法庭內扯橫額抗議? 公民抗命上腦, 司法判決干涉。 代表律師庭外發言像鬥士不像律師, 操守有問題, 是怎樣訓練出來的advocacy?

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    7. 多謝PHLI指教。誠如PHLI所提示,我們對法官判決的法理依據及案情了解不深;我無知,但應未至於是非不分,最好有人教精下我,「匿名2014年12月31日 上午6:52」如果有料爆,期待你打開你有知識的口。

      少女「用粉筆及膠紙在公眾場所塗鴉」被告刑毀,不是可以輕易無痕還原嗎?我一般市民真的很難理解。然後,少女被判入女童院,更難理解。撇除政治成份,我相信依然會有不少人大惑不解。

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    8. 少女被判入女童院>>>>>那是由兒童院作為保護令的執行方進行暫託, 而不是因干犯罪行被判刑進入兒童院.

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    9. 213章:

      1.(1)「...任何警務人員的申請下,信納任何被帶往法庭的7歲或以上的人,或任何其他7歲以下的人是需要受照顧或保護的兒童或少年...」,

      2.(2)「要受照顧或保護的兒童或少年指─
      (a) 曾經或正在受到襲擊、虐待、忽略或性侵犯;或
      (b) 健康、成長或福利曾經或正在受到忽略或於可避免的情況下受到損害;或
      (c) 健康、成長或福利看來相當可能受到忽略或於可避免的情況下受到損害;或
      (d) 不受控制的程度達至可能令他本人或其他人受到傷害,
      而須受照顧或保護的兒童或少年。」

      ***

      如果警察無拉刑毀,少女就不會被帶上兒童法庭,1就不成立,亦不會出現往後的爭拗。問題是,「畫粉筆畫」法律上真的算刑毀?如果算,這種程度警察慣常都會拉人提告嗎?

      的確,我不知道警察為何要申請、法庭為何要批准兒童院暫託少女(謝WILLIAM LAM),也不知道少女背景如何,難以置喙。胡吹一下,刑事條例 + Cap213 這個combo其實可以取代外展社工應付邊青、夜青等問題,將他們集中到一個少年中心保護起來。警察慣常也作出這些申請嗎?

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    10. Bill, you said that "學民的聲明, 嚇我一跳". I'm surprised but perhaps not as surprised as you are, because I see the UNFORTUNATE and SADDENING trend that: those (who want revolution), after flaming the legislature and the executive government, are trying to flame the judiciary. Evidence:
      1. filibusters (the reasons for doing so are not always apparent or cogent);
      2. targeting the police force (e.g. 'shopping' at night, turning oneself up to police and flood the system) & targeting other governmental departments (e.g. numerous cheques sent to the Inland Revenue, calling police/DoJ 'political' prosecution & persecution).

      And with 2 arms of the government being paralysed, what's next? It would be the judiciary:
      3. a LegCo member said to a magistrate in court that the magistrate was biased (or some sort that the magistrate has political motives? I can't recall exactly) (though that LegCo member subsequently emphatically apologised).
      4. and this now this incident "happened". (Let's wait & see what will happen next. It's still premature to conclude.)
      This is their strategy. Do you agree with my analysis?

      Rome is not built in 1 day. A good legal system, if destroyed, will be gone forever. I do NOT want to see the day that, when anyone (*including a judge*) gives reasons to his/her decision and despite the every effort to adequately reason, he would not be trusted but he would still be victimised. (If then, I swear I would not stay in such legal profession.)

      By the way, thank you BillSiu for this blog. It is becoming my haven. I dare not speak all these in my Facebook. All my views here have no market in HK, my "friends" won't care less, and more importantly, I learned much more here from various discussions and occasional supplies of cases (even if I disagree or do not understand). I enjoy the reasoning process and I hope many of your readers do, too.

      PHLI

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    11. PHLI

      You become such a valued reader to me. Thank you very much for your contributions. You always throw out ideas I have not thought of.

      I basically agree with what you have analyzed. It looks like there are nothing else they can think of trying to paralyze the system in many fronts though i doubt the graffiti incident is part of the plot however suspicious it has become when the young folks were able to pronounce a declaration to condemn the court and the police.

      If you find refuge here then please cling on. Let rationality prevail.

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  5. 作為前警員來分享一點個人意見

    學堂其實一年比一年hea, 教的只有基本中的基本. 實際上所有工作相關的知識都是實際工作後才由師兄們所教. 更有部分是法例和現實情況不配合, 根本不可能把學堂教的使用出來, 不然必定出事.
    個人認為香港現行的運作良好, 其實是由大量警察冒個人風險扭曲法例而成. 不然請多十倍警察都唔夠用, 警民關係也立刻惡劣十倍.

    個別前線警員為求拘捕數字不擇手段, 把很小的事變成嚴重罪行, 例如將藏毒變販毒, 甚至見過有人拉俾假地址當舖(有多少人知道這是刑事罪), 更有引導問話把無罪變有罪(真的大奸大惡無可口非, 但有時是對普通人). 但警隊文化對此非常縱容.
    不過黑社會相關的部門說他們沒打人才沒人相信. (我也認為打是應該的)

    警隊極度討厭示威者, 有督察因發出支持示威者的意見, 被全部手下杯葛, 因而被調閒職.
    個人意見是示威者比黑社會更討厭. 都係增加大量工作量, 但黑仔打咗冇人理, 示威者冇事都有鏡頭、律師睇到實. 而且現在示威者有很都針對警察, 也令警察感到厭惡的行為. 黑社會反而只是為了自己利益而不會針對警察.

    總結來說警隊內有太多太多的問題, 但某部份只可說是必然的惡. 就如世界上沒有國家可以完全禁制黑社會和黃賭毒.
    警民關係之差(其實主要是泛民議員加示威者, 加上他們發起引致部分人學習, 再加傳媒重點報導. 日常接觸的市民只有很小部分是這麽差的), 我認為已過不回歸點, 現在只有那邊屈服的問題. 警察和泛民人士全面對抗才是正途. 例如今次雨傘為什麼不是來一萬拉一萬. 最前線人員的主流意見都是---點解唔拉?

    PS: 香港警察其實比較支持人治多於法治, 我自己看我自己寫的字, 也感到一般市民會對此覺得不對勁. 但警察的長久文化如此, 不是一時三刻可以改變. 不過我也知道這是警民關係差的一大原因.

    asda

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    1. 既然是警察長久文化出的問題,何以近這兩年警民關係才變差呢?你其他講法代表性有幾大呢?

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    2. I have to say that I object to the characterisation that the Police College is getting 'hea'er' every year. That has not been my experience. The college experience has certainly changed (there're only tactical classes now, actual unarmed combat classes are gone), and some of the rules had been relaxed, but that's part and parcel of the change in police culture, some of it also reflects the ever-evolving international policing standards and exploration about what role an officer plays in the community; as well as the latest pedagogical theories about how much training you can put a person through over what period of time and how it might produce the best results.
      -Kolya
      P.S. 2 hours marching drills before breakfast were the sort of discredited practices that even armed forces around the world don't really do anymore.

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    3. 打古惑仔, 耍手段(如標少以前寫故事所述), 長久如此但不會留難普通市民. 市民亦會覺得打擊惡勢力氣焰, 超技術情有可原. 但反過來超技術失手, 疑犯脫罪, 甚至要掉換制服坐大牢, 誰會惋惜?
      警察認為示威者針對自己(及僱用自己的政府), 是個自我實現的預言. 對比零三七一, 市民同樣不滿, 何曾(大規模)針對警察? 越是煞有介事要"平亂", 越是草木皆兵. 爭取權利的市民比為利益的古惑仔更加難以分辨. 以打黑招數對付市民, 換來的是更多人不合作(市民要守法, 但從來無須依從警察的紀律生活).
      標少迴避的, 其實是警隊領導層是否有意將警隊推向對抗的另一方. 若標少早已明言己見, 還望見諒, 畢竟意見有異, 抱歉已非閣下長期讀者.
      LQ

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    4. 是否讀者,毫無問題,言論、思想自由可貴。我看不到警隊領導層把前綫推入火炕的好處,引火會焚身。

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    5. Kolya

      Still the 2-Hour Marching Class is still needed, and you guys should be really proud of your excellent drill, much better than the Queen's Guard.

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  6. 治安問題的成因多數是政治, 經濟, 民生問題, 其實和警察服務質素沒有太大關係,

    另外, 在封建制度下的警察, 是有誘因去遊走法律界線去立功, 討好上司.

    例如, 有警官帶籃絲帶公開執勤, 來表明立場就是例子.

    如果要改善警民關係, 警察必需要向市民負責才有望改善.

    愚民

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    1. Heh, 封建制度...
      I suppose in your view this isn't actually a common phenomenon in all big organisations and it's a particularist issue with the HKPF.
      -Kolya
      P.S.: Blue ribbons were supposed to support the police in executing their duties. That the police are supporting themselves in executing their duties seem to me entirely normal. That you reflexively assign political meaning to it is more a reflection of your own political stance than anything. But then what do I know? I am just a poor 番警犬.

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    2. 籃絲帶本身除了支持警察, 還有反學運的意思, 是有了黃絲帶才有籃絲帶.

      如果籃絲帶沒有政治意思, 我想籃絲帶的人就不會去打黃絲帶的了.

      而且如果支持警察, 就不應濫用私刑, 正因為警察方就是因為濫用私刑, 而令人責難.

      愚民

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    3. 另外我想知道為何警察制度可以和其他大組織的制度不同.

      請賜教.

      愚民

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    4. That's your interpretation of what blue ribbons means, and attributing to that symbol what other parties decide to imbue in them. I also like how you generalised 籃絲帶的人 as if that's one person and what that person does is ample proof of what the symbol means. Do you have any actual facts? We'll start with the number of people who has the blue ribbon in some capacity and then we'll work on the percentage of same engaged in violent acts against yellow ribbons? No? I didn't shink so either.

      As for 濫用私刑, I don't think you know what the term 濫用 or for that matter 私刑means. There were single digits allegation of so-called acts of police brutality over a three month period, and the poor vic was so badly tortured that I won't even get a day off for the injuries he suffered. If you want to ask me, I think the seven coppers in question probably did break the law (yes, probably. Until they are duly convicted, they are still innocent, surprisingly 警犬 has human rights too, it's an unacceptable state of affairs, I know) and should be punished according to the law (whatever happens, they are going to lose their jobs and pension anyway, this isn't the NYPD where shooting some black fellow gets you paid vacation), but 濫用私刑? Please.

      As for your second post, you clearly misunderstood. I was pouring scorn on your silly idea that the police are different from any other big organisation in it that 有誘因去遊走法律界線去立功, 討好上司 is a particular issue with the police, and your characterisation that it's a particularist 封建制度 systemic fault of the HKPF. Hell, if you get to work on some sort of place where only merit counts and there's no pressure to achieve goals, and where personal connection networks doesn't matter at all, could you give me a reference? Because I'd really like to work in such a place.

      My point is that 大組織 are broadly similar - under modern management practices, there are goals and attempts to measure them, and simple human nature tells us that people will try to achieve them in whatever way they can get away with... and it also tells us that human connections matter. You'd have to resign from the human race if you want to get away from that.
      -Kolya

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    5. 先多謝你的回應.

      你可以去維基百科, 找藍絲帶, 就有他們的事跡. 重點是藍絲帶是有政治性. 不應公務人員帶.

      我寫"濫用私刑"意思, 不是法律定義, 意思指, 不經合法途徑去解決事件.

      例如, 藍絲帶的人組團去清場和打示威者.

      之後關於組織的回應, 我英文太差, 看不明白. 對不起.

      愚民

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    6. Kolya,

      Like me who basically stay aloof and do not connect to covet for favour. But, you have no pay then.

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    7. But I need pay for dog biscuits and kennel rent...

      Guess it's back to feudalism for me then.
      -Kolya

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  7. Bill

    張子強單野當年當年有立法會議員、大律師公會成員同傳媒都有出過聲, 但都無法, 詩姑又完全唔理

    警民關係差唔係一朝一夕既事, 曾蔭培同 Dick Lee 時代都唔好得去邊 (記得Happy New Year事件嗎?)
    Sorry Sir 時期可以話係警隊士氣低潮, 但警民關係卻可以講係最好
    當曾偉雄上場成個警隊風氣唔同左, 禿應有決心同能力改革内部問題, 士氣係一下子彈番上去, 但就會引來警力同警權問題

    而必然的惡, 亦同樣存在於警察同示威者既對立同漫罵, 畢竟雙方各代表利對立既團體, 想和諧共處係無乜可能, 全世界都係咁

    最後. PPRB 其實以請番D專業人士幫警隊化下妝, 現時成個 PPRB 既表現真係笑死人

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    1. More information about Legco questioning 張子強's case

      http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr99-00/chinese/panels/se/papers/b1644c01.pdf

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    2. 謝謝,你隨手拈來比電腦還快。我依稀記得Magaret Ng 講過。我其實無睇過PPRB兩位大哥做的show.

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    3. Bill, 想當年毒果有support引張子強番泥都比人X到七彩...

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  8. 講咁多不如睇吓王慧麟寫殖民地警察嘅本質。

    http://www.pentoy.hk/%e6%99%82%e4%ba%8b/w31/2014/12/30/%e7%8e%8b%e6%85%a7%e9%ba%9f%ef%bc%9a%e6%89%ae%e6%85%88%e6%af%8d%e3%80%80%e5%af%a6%e5%b1%ac%e5%be%92%e5%8b%9e/

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    1. And yet the mets killed way more people than we do, including protestors. I guess that's why Max Wong is a professor and I am not; I haven't developed the elevated faculties required to ignore facts completely in favour of theory. I guess our semi-military organisation must be worse than the all-civilian mets with their long civilian tradition because he said so.
      As for 肉體及精神折磨... I can only ask...
      Y'all actually believe that?
      -Kolya

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    2. 殖民地警察的本質的看法適用於香港嗎?香港是割地而來的,非殖民地後也不能獨立。香港警察涉及保衞政權的編制及裝備,也無異於很多非殖民地的地方,本質論有見地嗎?

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    3. Max Wong is a typical example of what they say about 'a little knowledge'. Colonial police forces in general and HK police force in particular did have a fair deal of military influence... but these day that influence is more in pomp and ceremony and organisational culture than anything.

      In terms of culture and practices I think only the most wilfully blind and ignorant can accuse the HKPF of being 'militarised', certainly when compared to other major law enforcement agencies around the developed world.
      -Kolya

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    4. Koyla

      And yet HK need to face terrorists and serious armed robberies like London does? With more than a thousand guns-related crime cases each year, and with the met police patrolling area more than double the size of HK, but not with a double number of police officers, is it appropriate to suggest the "brutality" of the met police with the bias facts?

      And let's not forget the large number of Europeans who can move in and work in UK freely, while HK got a barrier from China. (which I support Bill's view on this)

      Yes we do appreciate the serious effort of HK police to lower the gun-related cases in HK, but let's not forget there are other things for improvement.

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    5. There are always room for improvement; this has nothing to do with the fact that Max Wong was full of shit in his comparison of HKPF to the Mets and citing the former's so-called militarised heritage as proof that we are somehow worse.

      I am not sure where you get the 'brutality' bit from - that word never appeared in the comment I made. I stated the fact that they killed more - which is a fact - including protestors - which is also a fact - and that it is preposterous to suggest that the HKPF is less professional and more militarised if one examines the facts.

      Anyway, let's have some facts - Greater London is something like 600 sq. miles and HK is a little over 400 - it's more like a 50% difference and nothing like the 'more than double' patrol area you claim - add to the fact we have far more sea area we have to cover and the fact of the matter is, the Mets actually have more officers per unit area than we do. It is true that the UK does face a degree of terrorist threat and their record on gun crimes is poor (last I checked it was more like 3 times your figure, but I haven't liased with them for a while now). A little extra fact for you - they also get almost four time our budget and officers get paid about double ours on average.

      Of course, if we were to consider, then we'd expect more police killings by the Mets to be related to terrorists or gun crimes, and yet that is not the case - while some such as Harry Stanley and Menzes could be kinda attributed to London's worst gun-crime and terrorist threats, others such as Tomlinson most definitely could not. You'd have to draw up some sort of statistical study probably broken down by region over alleged acts of police brutality, gun and knife crime prevalence etc and compare the two cities to draw any sort of reasonable conclusionl (which is why, you know, I didn't). There are also other factors which are hard to quantify but nevertheless significant, such as how our PCs and officers are all armed and the mets were not, etc, etc.

      All that means that an actual study as opposed to your average Max Wong philosophising would require a far more nunaced understanding of facts and their causes than a facile characterisation of 'HKPF colonial-miltiary bad, Mets civilian good'.
      -Kolya
      P.S. I am not sure what you mean when you brought up the immigration issue, are you one of those people who believe that free movement of peoples lead to greater crime?

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    6. Kolya

      Are we on the same map?

      London Metropolitan size: 1578 km square
      Hong Kong Size: 1104 km square

      No. of London Police Officers: ~31 400
      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/police-workforce-england-and-wales-31-march-2013/police-workforce-england-and-wales-31-march-2013

      No. of Hong Kong Police Officers: 28 347
      http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/police.pdf

      As a matter of fact finding, I can't see how come the Met actually has more officers per unit area than we did (and let's not mention they have a much larger land area to patrol)

      For gun crime, they got 1 581 over the last 12 months
      http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/

      Regarding the budgeting and salary, do you realize that the average spending for livelihood in London is far greater than in HK, like more than double, if not triple?

      Regarding the immigration issue, what I suggest isn't the free movement of people in the country itself, but free movement of people from different countries, of which UK is currently suffering from. Large amount of Eastern Europeans like the Poles and Turks came for finding work and they have created problems, including crime, which is a fact.

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    7. I am glad that you've admitted that your 'more than double' figure was wrong - but yes, you didn't say it out loud but you clearly did some fact finding, so that's good, anyway the figures comes to 20/km^2 against 26/km^2, give or take, so it is indeed about the same, and let's not forget that the Mets emply far more civilian employees (I think it's four to five time ours but I -am too lazy to check- haven't the data at hand, and they also have the MSC and the Transport Police and I think 3000+ PCSOs, so the figure is indeed quite similar. You also appear not to be too familiar with police work in Hong Kong - here's a hint - I mentioned sea area for a reason, the sea dogs cover about 600 sq. miles and number some 2500 which further puts the figures closer together.

      Apparently the Mets got gun crime down a bit since last I checked, which is good for them but you may want to go back a few years - it did fluctuate around 3,000 - here, have a source from a quick google - http://www.citizensreportuk.org/news/2013/06/24/london-gun-crime-offences-per-borough-2006-to-2013/

      Yeah, I know about London's living expenses, I actually lived there for a time, I am just suffering a severe case of penis envy because they have FOUR TIMES the budget we do. Though in terms of actual living expenses, you are again suffering from a case of premature enumeration - London is expensive but it's not THAT expensive compared to Hong Kong -this is what the Cost of Living Index has to say about London and Hong Kong
      http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/index

      As for immigrants -maybe you want to explain to me how immigrants cause crime and how the UK is 'suffering' from immigration, as an immigrant to HK myself (from a different country, mind you), I am quite curious as to your view why I am some inherent crime risk. Oh, and Turks don't have the right of work and abode in the UK, and you stating your opinion that they create problems including crime isn't actually evidence. You're going to have to do better than that.
      -Kolya
      P.S. By the way, you do realise that His Worship is also an 'immigrant from a different country', right?

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    8. Kolya

      Well well sorry that I may have incorrect figures before regarding the size of the place. However we are comparing apple to apple and orange to orange right? So what's the point of comparing those civies?

      The manpower of 20/km^2 against 26/km^2, sorry I really can't see it's the same, it's nearly the difference of two bricks, isn't it?

      If you think the Sea Dogs are drafting people away from land patrol, think about the DPG and ASU in the Met, which draw considerable manpower from the streets also.

      Ya FOUR TIMES the budget, and so? Do you mean that if the current Force got 4 times more budget it will serve people similar if not same standard as the MPS?

      Regarding the immigration problem, it's not me but the Conservative Government openly announced that the immigrants create "problems", including crime, to the country and they may plan some way to "control" it. Of course not all immigrants are potential problems (I am not sure about you, seems not a threat, right?)

      And lastly I did mention the Turks in purpose, particularly that Turk LOL

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