2014年5月28日星期三

違反交通案,連官都做唔到之二

看到上一篇匿名這留言,實在氣結。那位匿名這樣講:

都係大英帝國的法理基礎比較堅實,criminal conviction 就是 criminal conviction,JAC:「Criminal convictions (including motoring) are regarded as inherently serious matters」有何問題,點解冇嗱嗱要做個冇謂嘅 qualification:「香港的交通違例是使用刑事審訊程序的,大部份都稱不上嚴重罪行」。

唔係成日話,純以法理分析事情〈包括食飯、去廁所〉嘅咩,好唔 consistent 喎。

咁叫inconsistent?你通常喺廁所睇我啲文架?堅實就食多啲蔬果,飲多啲水。criminal conviction都有好多種喇,刑事成份低嗰啲都唔保存案底,點可一刀切呢?如果你交通違例或者小販阻街或者做過垃圾蟲,因為否認控罪經審訊後定罪,審訊是刑事程序,你算自己有刑事定罪紀錄的罪犯嗎?


我見到這種堅實的問題,一時間思想都會便秘。經刑事審訊程序審結而定罪,也有刑事成份的考慮,所以有些案會以告票檢控,法庭程序以傳票(summons)方式進行,譬如普通交通違例,政府部門發出的傳票(departmental summons),被視為嚴重的就會以拘捕落案形式進行。同樣會是刑事定罪,在制度上及處理上都有分別,那就叫不一致嗎?我看了英國這件案慨嘆英庭的嚴苛,跟我平日法治的心看事物有何衝突?去廁所就不用法理嗎?當然,不用的話匿名是男人卻入了女廁,街頭便變成公廁,可以小覷廁所的法治嗎?吃的道理也是一樣,否則怎會有「厚多士」那種事故?

還有,上一篇我引用CrimeLine對判辭的撮寫,我還未有時間看原判辭,單看撮寫引用那段判辭

.......as the first of his convictions will fall away later this year, he will consider re-applying when the next competition is launched

可見這motoring convictions是有期限的,那就不涉因定罪紀錄影響intergrity而不讓那律師申請做法官了。匿名這評論既無知亦不知所謂,無能力就不要胡亂挑機,反正有堅實的問題,就去多幾次廁所才落筆。我根本沒有爭論是否criminal conviction,我爭論的那是否serious matters而致不譲人申請做官。

假如這申請人只收到告票,他就直接繳款,不上庭抗辯,那麽又算是criminal conviction嗎?習慣上主控會不當那是定罪紀錄。但是,「牛肉乾」上庭抗辯失敗應否考慮呢?這事情的看法並不一致。Leonard 法官在Sin Yiu-kong(CACC416/1979)一案,裁定法庭定額罰款紀錄在判罰時不應考慮,而之後Macdougall法官在Ma Kin-man (HCMA180/1985) 一案卻持相反意見。

我希望這位匿名看清楚這issue才再留言。





27 則留言:

  1. 題外話。標少當初點解讀法律嘅?

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    1. 讀law?唔識law咪讀囉。無女朋友咪追女仔囉。無錢咪揾錢囉。依家日日都睇下law, 越睇就越唔記得,時時都揾餐死,好花時間。

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    2. 咁唔係所有唔識嘅都想讀嘅。我個人嚟講就唔會讀神學嘞。冇興趣嘛。我因為想教學生明白基本 principles 同 critical thinking,就去咗讀 legal study 試味班 (cert)。但太 intensive 啦。I read too slowly and as I am growing old (or maybe 一日到黑對著部電腦) there are days my eyes can't focus at all. 我唔讀 year 2 (dip) 啦。想自修。隨咗你個 blog,有冇好書或 websites 介紹?唔該你先。

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    3. 老友,critical thinking 睇山中囉,我啲嘢無乜睇頭喎,我只是提出非主流的看法。思考方法的書起碼30年沒看過,時常看的是雜書及判辭。

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    4. Critical thinking 求其攞份薪聞、評論都可以啦!你個 blog 都得㗎 -- comment 入面大把反面教材!哈哈哈哈哈!
      我講緊 legal 呀!有冇好書介紹嗟?最好係低能都睇得明嗰啲喎!
      買咗本「洞穴奇案的十四種判決」(The Case of the Speluncean Explorers))。有趣就幾有趣嘞,不過就好似明又好似唔明。

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    5. 老老實實,我都無睇legal嘅書。

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  2. 嗱,標少,老老實實,你身家幾多?
    連某地區某法庭某法官都醉酒駕駛架啦
    (嬉笑中的PHLI, 不必回答)

    Sin Yiu-kong、Ma Kin-man係咪倉底貨? 好難搵架?
    我成日都驚搵唔到案例(以為無), 結果變左"professional" negligence

    PHLI

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    1. 小師弟(你自己claim),

      老老實實,身家可憐地少,僅足糊口,不過也不會像Jackson-Lipkin大老爺同陸小鳳一起去騙綜援,這種香港司法史上的第一醜事我幹不出。窮等人家都有有所不為的事。

      倉底貨大平賣,有時你都見上訴判辭引用King's Bench年代的喇。揾唔到案例有時是search engine唔夠user friendly.

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    2. 唔係果D「身家」呀~ 「家底」= 案底?
      不過Jackson-Lipkin真係奇葩!
      不如講下佢D奇趣事? (不過標少應該唔會speak ill of the dead)

      以前無search engine仲弊...小弟無法想像

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    3. 無search engine 就靠個腦,或者問人囉。好似無計數機果陣心算快好多,依家就只有1+1既速度。無心裝載,奇趣事一下都忘掉,有時有人提起先至ring a bell.

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  3. 我想問下stare decisis的問題,點解Ma Kin-man (HCMA180/1985)可以不跟從Sin Yiu-kong (CACC416/1979)的判決嘅?上訴庭的判例唔係對原訟庭有約束力嗎?

    想順便問多幾個情況,由高院原訟庭聽審的裁判法院上訴案例(HCMA)對於區域法院(DCCC)有沒有約束力?同樣道理民事案件中由高院原訟庭聽審的小額錢債上訴案/勞資審裁處上訴案等等對於要上訴到上訴庭的inferior court (區域法院和土地審裁處)又有沒有約束力呢?這個問題我當年讀Legal System時一直都搞唔清,textbook又唔覺有講,自己又冇特別去問professor。

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    1. 你眼利,不過受歷史誤導。我舉這兩件案沒有stare decisis的問題,因為CACC416/1979也只不過是裁判法院上訴,當年還未有HCMA這種分類。CACC的CA不是court of appeal, 只是criminal appeal的意思。如果我沒搞錯,裁判法院上訴在1984年才開始用HCMA這編號。Leonard和Macdougall兩位都是同級。

      你第二段的問題我不肯定正確答案,不敢亂講。

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    2. 明白,我只知道現在的HCMA也有機會是由上訴庭聽審,沒想過以前高院聽審的裁判法院上訴也可以是CACC。

      不過即使是同級,也可以有horizontal stare decisis的。Young v Bristol Aeroplane Co Ltd [1944] KB 718 says CA is bound to follow is own decision except when there are two previous conflicting decisions, the previous decision was inconsistent with a subsequent HL decision, or the case was given per incuriam. 不過終審法院已在謝偉俊案(A Solicitor v Law Society of Hong Kong [2008] 2 HKLRD 576)推翻Young v Bristol,認為只要plainly wrong就可以not follow previous own decision。不知CFI在聽審上訴時會不會都有horizontal stare decisis呢?

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    3. 謝謝。你問的我不懂。

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    4. As I know, MA cases are not binding to DC trials (pl refer to Kwong Kui Wing (1996)).

      In my point of view, CFI trial should be bound by CACC judgments. logically, CFI trial appeals will be heard by CA and most of the CFI judges should follow the judgments laid down by CA.

      Mag cases will only be bound by CFI, CA and CFA but not DC. (you may refer to the sources of hong kong law - ch. 3 , the last para)

      RL

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    5. Sorry, I apologize for my typo.
      You should refer to the book " The Sources of Hong Kong Law" written by Peter Wesley-smith, ch.5 (not ch. 3), the last sentence stated that " Magistrates are assumed not to be bound by the decisions of the DC, since magisterial appeals go the High Court"

      I apologize for it.

      RL

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    6. 不好意思,想請問A Solicitor v Law Society of Hong Kong [2008] 2 HKLRD 576此案是推翻Young v Bristol 3 個Exceptions 還是把plainly wrong代替了 per incuriam exceptionm而已?

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  4. 感恩視力尚算正常,當然看見「the first of his convictions will fall away later this year」。但文章唔係講緊「fall away 」前嘅狀況咩,我只是說「criminal conviction 就是 criminal conviction」,嚴唔嚴重不是你說了算,你自言自語說嚴重又如何,說不嚴重又如何。

    我寡學不才,「motoring convictions 是有期限的」是否有點邏輯問題,輕微罪行過一段時間,刪除罪行記錄,就表示 conviction 從不存在? Criminal conviction 和 recordable offence 是兩個不同的概念,可以混為一談嗎?冇定罪紀錄就不是 criminal conviction?

    所舉 Sin Yiu-kong 和 Ma Kin-man 案例,似乎只是針對量刑時,應否考慮先前沒有 recorded 的 conviction,和罪行本身是否 criminal conviction 有甚麼關係?

    以王晶為偶像,用「堅實法理基礎」大玩屎尿 gag,OK,但不是我杯茶,n 年前,已把僅餘的王晶電影 DVD,丟入垃圾桶。

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    1. Criminal convictions fall away 就潔白無瑕?為何fall away之後就可以申請做官,之前就不可?我不學無術,我評論的是這種motoring convictions不算serious matters, 這是我的看法,當然説了算,我可以説完就推翻這judicial review嗎?我講可記錄的罪行正是指出輕重有別,不應一刀切,舉Sin及Ma兩案也在説明量刑時也會考慮交通紀錄的性質,而不是一有criminal convictions就死板的套用。必定是我表達能力差,詞不達意。王晶玩甚麽gag我不知,這人的lousy製作從來都不會是我會買的DVD。你垃圾桶扔甚麽進去是閣下的選擇,如果有空位就把我寫的扔進去呀。

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  5. I have a question on stare decisis. If CFI appeal is heard by CFA, will judgement by CA binding on CFI? Thanks!

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    1. Your question is unclear. CFI appeal goes to CA first, only further appeal will land in CFA. CA judgment is of course binding on CFI.

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  6. If mag court appeal goes to CFI, will further appeal goes to CFA but not CA? In this sense, CA judgement is still binding?

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    1. Mag appeal will goes to CFI and at rarely occasion goes to CA when CFI refers a point of law to CA for consideration. When mag case lands in CFI, it can go to CFA if leave is granted. All CFA, CA and CFI judgments will bind mag court.

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    2. So when CFI is dealing with mag appeal, CFI is bound by CA judgement?

      Quite confused after reading the above comments-You should refer to the book " The Sources of Hong Kong Law" written by Peter Wesley-smith, ch.5 (not ch. 3), the last sentence stated that " Magistrates are assumed not to be bound by the decisions of the DC, since magisterial appeals go the High Court"

      By the same logic, as further appeal on mag case will go to CFA eventually after CFI, is CA still binding on CFI on mag court cases?

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    3. Sorry mate, I have no law book with me. I have only got an outdated Archbold. I can only read the appeal judgments.

      I think it will be easier to remember if you just remember this. Mag is bound by CFI, CA and CFA decisions. DC is never an appellate court so its decision binds no one.

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    4. Understood. Thanks so much!

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