1. 被告人的行為導致受害人死亡;
2. 該行為是蓄意的;
3. 該行為是非法的;及
4. 該行為是危險的,意思是所有神志清醒、明白事理的人都必然 察覺到是帶有令受害人受到某種程度的傷害的風險。
(香港司法學院《陪審團指引》/Specimen Directions issued by the Hong Kong Judicial Institute)
上一篇網友提出質疑有關死亡的"因由" (causation), 質疑死者逃避交通警截查, 高速逃走, 屬危險駕駛, 死者當時可選擇停車。言下之意, 死者的意外是自己危險駕駛造成, 如果一早停車, 就不會產生意外了。我姑且不爭論這兩點, 否則若我說當日死者沒駕駛電單車, 就不會產生悲劇了, 也無需討論了。我是以發生了的事情來討論的。
首先講高速逃走, 這包含兩個層面, 逃避警方及逃避休班關員(下稱關員)攔截。停車也同樣包含因交通警追截及關員攔截而停車。從YouTube看到的片段(footage), 警察已跟着死者第二次駛到上址, 也不是在奮力追趕, 事後傳媒報導, 交通警因為發覺死者電單車的車牌掛得不穩妥才引起他的關注的。我對交通警當時執勤的態度完全沒有批評, 也不覺得交通警犯任何錯誤, 他在合法執勤, 尾隨死者時車速和距離也恰如其份, 死者失事跟警察毫無關係。
接著當然要分析關員的行為。關員的行為有沒有導致電單司機死亡? 首先, 控方無須證明關員的行為是導致電單司機死亡的唯一原因, 也無須證明是主要原因, 控方只須證明關員的行為是導致司機死亡的其中一項因由, 但不是一項毫不重要的因由。
說到底, 案情事實都靠警察調查, 本案的交通警清楚事實經過, 也應該看到頭盔是否在關員與司機接觸或擦身而過的一刻飛脫。原本是一宗交通違例的小案, 竟然可以發展成蠢案, 奪去生命。有駕駛習慣的人也應知道, 遇到突發事司機不一定急煞停車的, 立即看倒後鏡在安全情況下急扭軚閃避也是個人技術純熟的正常反應。協助警察, 何不取出手機拍攝電單車被交通警閃燈尾隨的情況, 或記下車牌交給警員。這樣一搞, 警察也多得你唔少, 無端端開了個粉紅file。
I bet even if there is prosecution, no jury would convict.
回覆刪除太武斷!唔一定入罪!但點可以話冇陪審員判入罪?我哋都係睇到初步嘅資料,正如標示所講,基本嘅入罪元素係有,只不過要睇吓陪審團嘅成員接唔接受關員嘅一些辯解去脫罪!有時都係要睇彩數!
刪除證監會鄧映霞串謀妨礙司法公正 Deng Yingxia, Associate Director of the SFC, Prosecuted by the ICAC - https://www.icac.org.hk/en/p/press/index_id_2031.html
回覆刪除周啟邦律師事務所俾法庭鬧 KB Chau & Co Solicitors Criticized By Court [2018] HKCA 210
回覆刪除http://legalref.judiciary.hk/lrs/common/ju/ju_frame.jsp?DIS=114747&currpage=T
完全唔識法律,單從標少貼和留言,有以下見解:
回覆刪除若從辯方思維出發,能爭議的犯罪元素是標少列出的第三項元素 - 行為合法性。唯一能合法化關員的行為是爭議他正行使公民逮捕權,且該行為(即關員推倒或嘗試推倒在駕駛高速行駛電單車的死者) 是屬於合理武力。
“《侵害人身罪條例》(第 212 章)第 36 條 意圖犯罪而襲擊或襲警等
(b) 襲擊、抗拒或故意阻撓在正當執行職務的任何警務人員或在協助該警務人員的人
即屬犯可循簡易或公訴程序審訊的罪行,可處監禁2年。”
以已知事實,關員當時目擊死者逃避交通警追截,即死者抗拒在正當執行職務的警務人員,屬可逮捕罪行範疇。故關員可爭拗正行使公民逮捕權
至於101A對所用的武力作出的限制-“就當時環境而言屬於合理的武力”, 各有說法,應供陪審團裁斷。
無論如何,律政司在網站列出的檢控決定應基於:
1. 證據是否充分
正如標少所列,就以知事實,證據充分。
2. 公眾利益
“b. 罪行的嚴重程度:較嚴重的罪行,較大可能會基於公眾利益而進行檢控,這些較嚴重的罪行包括令受害者遭受重大傷害或損失的罪行,或涉及多名受害者的罪行。”
此事件引致電單車司機死亡,即受害者遭受重大傷害,公眾利益原則,律政司應予檢控。
3. (疑犯的)精神狀況
無證據證明關員精神狀況異常,若是正在服役的休班關員,精神狀態理應正常。
所以我認同律政司應以誤殺檢控關員,辯解可留待陪審團裁斷
恐怕只是S.61, Cap 374, 而非S.36, Cap 212.
刪除61.忽視交通指示的罰則
凡穿著制服的警務人員或交通督導員當其時在道路上督導交通,任何駕駛車輛的人或任何行人忽視或拒絕服從該警務人員或交通督導員的指示,即屬犯罪,可處第1級罰款。
最高罰款$2000, 非可逮捕罪行。
不好意思班門弄斧. 再提出一點:
回覆刪除如果當時途人丟了一把鐵釘或石子出來為了令電單車失控而作公民拘捕, 我覺得那毫無疑問地可以起訴誤殺.
但這案件的片段顯示更大的可能是他走出來是想被電單車看見而期待他會減速. 最少我看到他最後一秒看見電單車不會減速後他有嘗試避開電單車. 反而電單車才是in motion那個, 而電單車沒有打算減速以避免碰撞.
可以各抒己見提出不同觀點的討論是一種享受, 有誰能講絕對的對錯, 法庭也只是制度上的裁判, 我們服從也可以不同意論據。
刪除深有同感. 司法是制度, 法官只是人. 尊重整個制度而不是特別某個法官, 才叫法治. 想到現在韓國情況, 很有同鳴.
刪除看見標少的理據也刺激了我很多想法. 感謝你的時間.
Was occupied yesterday and just have the privilege to read Bill Siu's detailed analysis of the case. I do enjoy such the discussion here... all based on fact as we see it and the law as we understand it, nothing more...
刪除Back to Bill Siu's latest post... It appears that the focus is on the legality of CE officer's act of stepping onto the road to try to stop the bike. With respect, it seems to me that the analysis may not have addressed the following matters (some are extracted from the discussion of other readers like Thomas here and the credits go to them):-
1) It seems undisputed that the CE officer was trying to assist the police officer to apprehend the biker. Would an attempt to assist a police officer (let's say it doesn't amount to an arrest) a reasonable excuse / justification when the CE officer is put to trial for offences like assault or jaywalking?
Would this affect the basis of Bill Siu's argument that there was illegality on the part of the CE officer at the very beginning?
2) Assuming the CE officer's act to go onto the road to try to signal the biker to stop riding an attempt of arrest, it appears that we will then need to consider if there was an arrestable offence which the CE officer reasonably believe that there was one - the alleged dangerous driving of the biker. I am not going to repeat what I said in the earlier posts and I just want to bring this matter up, as a lot of discussions on the internet seem to have omitted such discussion. I am not sure if the act of ignoring police's request to pull over is, in reality, not an act of dangerous driving or the commentators out there on the internet just failed to address this.
It seems that Bill Siu subsequently said a few things about the cause of death of the biker and, if I may, I also wanna say the following:-
1) When riding a bike at high speed towards the CE officer on the road (regardless of whether it was legal for the CE officer to be on the road), I argue that the biker should have reasonably foreseen the risk of collision or reasonable force would be used against him, which, as a rider, ought to have known that it could cause serious injury.
Please forgive me for advancing another not so good hypothetical example: If the biker was riding his bike towards a police officer, the police officer (believing his life is in real danger,... I say that the CE officer at the material time should have the same belief too) drew his gun and fired, causing the biker to lose control and crash into a tree and suffered fatal injury. Will the police officer be held liable for the death of the biker? In this example, a lethal weapon was discharged... what about just a punch from the CE officer?
The point I am trying to make here is, shall we include reasonable foreseeability test in the analysis?
2) As to what was the substantial and operating cause of the biker's death, what about riding a bike at high speed towards a person standing on the road with a foresight that there could be a collision or force being used against him?
Thanks and any mistake made in this post is surely my responsibility alone.
V
1) "An attempt to assist a police officer (let's say it doesn't amount to an arrest) a reasonable excuse / justification when the CE officer is put to trial for offences like assault or jaywalking"
刪除In general, yes. But it all depends on the circumstances around it.
2) "I am not sure if the act of ignoring police's request to pull over is, in reality, not an act of dangerous driving or the commentators out there on the internet just failed to address this."
Ignoring police request itself would not amount to dangerous driving unless he was driving dangerously before police request.
Further to your above point:
1) Your argument seems doesn't sound logical, it is a traffic road not a walkway, is it reasonable to have a passer-by in the middle of the traffic road in the first place?
"Please forgive me for advancing another not so good hypothetical example: If the biker was riding his bike towards a police officer, the police officer (believing his life is in real danger,... I say that the CE officer at the material time should have the same belief too) drew his gun and fired, causing the biker to lose control and crash into a tree and suffered fatal injury. Will the police officer be held liable for the death of the biker? In this example, a lethal weapon was discharged... what about just a punch from the CE officer?"
Your example given really out of context, nothing can draw analogy with this case.
Many of your example using an arguable fact as basis of discussion which is the motor cyclist was riding towards the CE officer/police officer. What does 'riding towards' mean? With intend to crash the CE officer? If it is your argument, why does the cyclist doing so? Obviously, he was not driving towards but drove away.
SL
Hi, SL, thanks for the reply and if I may, I would like to say a few words as well:-
刪除1) Regarding your reply that the act of ignoring police request (and continuing riding his bike at certain speed with an intention to flee... this is how I understand from the video), with respect, I am unable to agree that the act of ignoring police request and continuing riding etc. was not an act of dangerous driving. The Transport and Housing Bureau, Security Bureau and the HKPF had the following to say in a LC Paper (https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr17-18/english/panels/se/papers/se20180413cb2-1180-3-e.pdf) :-
"12. ...It is only when it is absolutely necessary and when there is no other alternative, and for the purpose of responding to unforeseeable circumstances on the road and to safeguard the safety of road users, such as when there is a need to immediately arrest a person who refuses to stop his vehicle at the instruction of a police officer and attempts to flee, a person who has committed serious driving offences (including drink driving, drug driving or hit and run in a traffic accident), or a person suspected of having committed serious or violent crimes etc., that the Police will conduct pursuits. At all times, the Police’s pursuit is conducted against unlawful behaviours, as well as the dangerous and grossly irresponsible drivers."
It appears that a pursuit would only be conducted against dangerous and grossly irresponsible drivers, I think this says something on whether there was dangerous driving. If there was no dangerous driving on the part of the biker, does it mean that the police officer was... wrong to begin a pursuit?
If ignoring the police's request to stop and continuing driving / riding is considered not an act of dangerous driving under the law, then, I think the fellows at the TD should revise the website to stop listing such as an example of dangerous driving.
2) Well, surely the road in question is not a walkway, it is also surely not a highway too. The road in question is a driveway that connects various industrial and commercial buildings in the area and it is reasonable to foresee that there may be people walking / working on the road. I say this because the google map street view shows that there were people walking / working on the road, not necessarily on the pavement.
As to whether the rider was riding towards the CE officer, I in fact believe that it's not really relevant. My point has always been that the rider should not ride when the road condition was no longer safe for him to do so. I argue that that's what a prudent and reasonable driver ought to have done.
So, with respect, I am unable to say that it was reasonable for the biker to believe that there would be no people on the road. More importantly, the rider should be able to see the CE officer at a distance and what should be done should be obvious to a prudent and reasonable road user.
Let's say that the CE officer was on the road for no lawful reason, I still don't think it gave the rider a right to continue riding, much less speeding.
Thanks.
V
Sorry, not "how I understand from the vidro" but "what I understand from the video"
刪除Sorry for the typo...
V
sorry again for the mistake made:-
刪除"Regarding your reply that the act of ignoring police request (and continuing riding his bike at certain speed with an intention to flee... this is how I understand from the video), with respect..." should be read as "Regarding your reply that the act of ignoring police request (and continuing riding his bike at certain speed with an intention to flee... this is what I understand from the video) would not amount to dangerous driving unless he was driving dangerously before police request, with respect..."
Really sorry for making my reply difficult to read. This is all on me...
V
1) What you quoted above is not legislation, no force of law. You are now talking some driving dangerously in law, right?
刪除2) Previous you said the motor cyclist drove towards the CE officer, not you said it is not. It is of course matter, it goes to intention to hit the CE officer. Now, you are changing the argument to another point. Why a reasonable prudent driver relevant? You are talking criminal case, right? You cannot create an offense by imposing reasonable prudent test. What offense you are talking about and what elements are the offense? 3) Further, even follow your view, you could not taking out the reasonableness of the CE behivour and talk alone the reasonableness of the MV cyclist behavior. As to the reasonable behavior of the MV cyclist, you can see in the video, the motor cyclist actually didn't hit and successfully avoid the CE officer. In some cases, stop is not the only safe option to avoid an accident, change direction and avoid a hit is another. If so, how can your argument cannot erect?
SL
Hi, SL, thanks for the reply and here is mine:-
刪除1) Nope, what I quoted in the previous post does not have the force of law. But I think it sheds some light what constitutes dangerous driving in the eye of the executive. I have a question on this because illegality on the part of the CE officer for he standing on the road appears to be a matter to be taken into account in the analysis.
2) With respect, I don't think I have changed my argument. I am trying to point out that the rider rode his bike in a dangerous manner, as the way he rode his bike fell far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it was obviously dangerous in the eye of a competent and careful driver (s36(4) Cap. 374). Using the words from Cap. 374, when a competent and careful driver foresees that there will be persons walking / working on the road, I argue that he should be maneuvering his motor vehicle cautiously. I argue that because the biker failed to do completely, there was dangerous driving. While speeding on an empty road may not amount to dangerous driving, speeding with a person in the middle of the road, I think, is different.
3) As to the reasonableness of the act of the CE officer, I think you are talking about the alleged act of punching (and not just being on the road). I think there is a difference between your analysis of the footage and mine. It appears that you opine that the biker tried to avoid the CE officer but the CE officer punched him. I, however, questioned the contact (if any) could be resulted from an accident arising from the CE officer's dodging action. I also questioned what caused the biker's death... could it be the biker's own dangerous act of riding? I argue that the biker did ride his bike dangerously close to the CE officer (if not towards him) without any reasonable excuse and only managed to swerve a bit at the end. When the biker did this, could we argue that he gave the CE officer a reason to use reasonable force against him (in the eye of the CE officer, he was trying to use reasonable force to subdue the biker)?
I am just trying to present the case from a different angle.
V
其實係咪電單車司機企圖謀殺關員?
回覆刪除同意
刪除電單車冇減速又冇打算減速係因為司機想殺死關員?
回覆刪除劣屍造死政府人員就得,
刪除其他人犯法邊係犯法?
劣屍話港共係非法政權, 法律就係惡法, 唔撚駛守架
Barrister C Y Li SC Absurd 李秋源資深大律師陳詞荒謬 - CWG v MH [2014] 1 HKLRD 838 (§16)
回覆刪除bill少可否block掉那位不斷張貼律師負面新聞洗版的仁兄?這種行為嚴重干擾正常討論
回覆刪除睇返網上片段電單車司機大把時間停車。根本一定停得切。如果死嗰個係個關員,就應該告電單車司機謀殺。
回覆刪除//我認為這點有商榷餘地,畢竟電單車看見路面前方有人站着是有責任減速,而不是撞上去的,[這與當日死者沒駕駛電單車就不會產生悲劇了]這種but for cause 不一樣,電單車沒有看見前方路人而盡責減速是很大的proximate cause //
回覆刪除我亦認為Thomas 這點有商榷餘地,冇錯,but- for course同 proximate cause 係兩種唔同嘅概念!電單車冇睇見前方路人而盡集減速係汽車失控嘅一個重要原因,但該休班文職海關人員,佢嘅拘捕權同普通市民係完全冇分別,正如標少所講,做一個好市民,協助警方原本係好事,但都要量力而為,衝出馬路嘗試截停一架高速行駛嘅電單車是否一個有理智明白事理嘅人會做嘅呢?標少可能認為唔會 ,Thomas可能認為會,但無論如何,這個行為亦係導致受害人死亡一個重要原因!佢魯莽行為嘅程度係唔係需要上各種刑事責任,我覺得應該去留俾法庭(法官或陪審團)去決定!
當然我都知道律政司可以因為公眾利益嘅原因就算所有嘅定罪條件都滿足哂,仍然可以決定唔起訴,事實上過去亦有呢啲例子,例如星島胡仙案,法官阮雲道兒子藏毒案,最近亦有一位年青女子在警察宿舍內藏有毒品,律政司亦冇起訴,法官都質疑證據充足點解唔起訴(以上幾宗案都引起極大爭議,被批評有權有勢嘅人或者係紀律部隊有關嘅案件,就從寬處理),我覺得除非有(1)重大嘅公眾利益原因,(2)做成後果唔係最嚴重,例如只係受傷(唔算特別嚴重),否則律政司絕對唔應該輕易運用公眾利益呢個酌情權而放棄起訴.
我都唔好意思,再提出一點,我翻看片段該海關人員的確手部係打到電單車司機嘅頭部,至於佢當時嘅心態係點樣真係好難講,好多同情司機嘅人睇到就係司機到最後嗰刻係向左轉嘗試避免撞到該途人,而關員係有意用手攔截該司機,但同情關員嘅人就睇到係關員嘗試避開電單車,認為就算真係隻手打到司機個頭,只不過係最後一刻身體自然嘅反應!
回覆刪除我個人認為應該對關員提出檢控(較嚴重嘅罪行),最終需唔需要附上刑事責任就交比法庭,最少唔係干擾汽車罪!但同時我認為如果關員被控誤殺,請一個好律師能夠打甩嘅機會都唔低,因為刑事檢控嘅舉證責任都好高,疑點係歸於被告!不過無論如何,關員嘅魯莽行為,我覺得應該受到道德上嘅譴責!
Wouldn't the motorist's failure to stop (i.e. continued speeding) be considered an intervening act in this case?
刪除May I ask why you quote Specimen Directions in Jury Trials as authority? Is it because if the case go to High Court, it would be a jury trial and the Specimen Directions will be used to guide the jury?
刪除SL
Hi SL,
刪除Manslaughter is a jury case. That is why I used "Specimen Directions in Jury Trials" issued by the Judicial Institute. I have to say something about the Judicial Institute. Many many years ago, during the weekends, there were workshops and seminars for judges and magistrates. Then it developed into publications, some open to the public and some only accessible through the Judiciary's intranet. The Judicial Institute was formed. It should be when Andrew Li was the Chief Judge of the Court of Final Appeal. If this case ends as I recommended a manslaughter charge, it will be tried in the high court. Specimen Directions are provided to high court judges to direct the jurors in law to reach the verdict. I relied on the Specimen to avoid missing out on anything in the thinking process.
Thomas2025年1月11日 下午2:32,
刪除It was an intervening act but not independent of the act of the deft's.
Hi Bill Siu, I'm not sure that the motorcyclist's continued speeding is a direct response or is directly linked to the pedestrian's actions (unless the deceased wanted to run the pedestrian over).
刪除But that's a question of law that I'm very much interested in learning more about.
The driver killed himself when he saw the man in front of him from a distance and decided not to stop or even slow down. What is there to discuss? It’s a case of suicide.
回覆刪除//衝出馬路嘗試截停一架高速行駛嘅電單車是否一個有理智明白事理嘅人會做嘅呢//
回覆刪除問題在於「截停」的意思是什麼. 是跑出來希望對方見到自己後就會減速? 還是跑出來打算用肉體之軀推倒一步高速行駛中的電單車?
你可以這樣想:
(1) 如果路人是走出來希望對方看見自己而停車(用極端例子, 六四事件中的坦克人), 那是否違法?
(2) 如果路人是走出來希望用物理方式強行令高速電單車停下, 那是否違法?
我想你也會認為(1)不是違法的. 而我想說的就是, 控方似乎難以證明, beyond reasonable doubt, 該路人在做的是(1)還是(2).
我不認為正常理性的人會愚蠢到打算用肉體之驅擋下電單車. 所以我認為較合理的理解是他跑到路上希望對方看見自己後就會盡責減速 - 而有關跡象就是他看見對方沒有減速而即將撞到自己時, 他有嘗試避到左邊. 但這時候電單車卻轉向它的右邊(即與路人同一方向), 結果造成碰撞而失控. 你如果再看影片慢播應該就會看到是路人先嘗試往左閃避再先, 電單車轉右在後, 然後雙方才有接觸.
至於說是不是每個有可能定罪的事件都要檢控, 我想我們都知道不是的. 檢控人員不但要考慮interest of justice, 還要考慮有沒有likelihood of success. 在這件事中, 我認為更大的問題是likelihood of success, 而不是公眾利益.
至於你提及的幾宗案件例如胡仙案, 我沒有意見 - 我自己並不特別同情香港政府. 只要批評有理, 為什麼不能罵?
片中所見關員是一早站在路中招手試圖攔截電單車的,電單車沒有減速停下,直接冲過,兩者0.2秒間的相遇會發生什麽事沒人可預計到。按common sense,這刻駕車者已經躲過第一個警員的盤查,見到前面路中又有人舉手要求停車,條件反射下的他很可能以為前面的人是便衣警察,想直接冲過。如果他加速導致之後自己的死亡,責不在攔路者,如果他加速撞死攔路者他更加有罪責。所以警方要求更多資料,從中計算出駕車者有沒有加速是很重要的資信。
回覆刪除對關員來説,如果人沒死他就可能會拿到見義勇為獎,人死了踫到標少這些心有執著的人,就一身蟻,哈。
點解認為標少係心有執着?我都可以話你係心有執着,標少都講出我哋可以用唔同嘅觀點,角度去看事件,亦可以唔同意對方觀點嘅理據!兩個合理嘅人就完全相同嘅事實作出完全相反嘅結論,兩個嘅結論都同時可以係合理!只有極度自我中心嘅人先至會認為自己嘅觀點係完全正確,人哋就有執念,自己就係客觀!從來無認為司機冇錯,但司機有錯唔等於該文職海關冇錯,兩者唔係互相排斥嘅,關員需唔需要為佢自己嘅行為付上不小心,魯莽等嘅法律責任。應該由檢控同法庭去判定!
刪除I cannot agree your point because:
刪除1) You concluded the lawfulness of the CE officer based on the thinking of the Cyclist.
2) The lawfulness of the Cyclist driving behavior doesn't always contribute to the lawfulness of CE officer's act. It is the lawfulness of the CE officer of concern.
完全唔明白閣下想表達什麼!
刪除網上流傳的錄像開始時,司機與關員距離估計起碼有50米,開始的這一刻司機肯定見到站在路中心揮手要求他停車的人,而路中人也見到司機在高速逃逸。合理的推想,在這一刻:司機期望路中人走開不要阻住他逃跑;而關員就期望司機見到他招手會停車或減速接受警察的盤查。但是雙方的期望都出錯(電單車如果沒有加速的話,起碼不見有減速)。如果你是他們,在兩人快相遇的零點二秒前發現期望出錯,會想什麼?以心比心,以我來説可能只説得一聲“shit”就馬上避開——這是生死的一刹,想的是逃命,那會想到怎麼對付對方?他們都是普通人,不是動漫中的超人!
刪除感覺之前的討論完全忽略他們相碰前的狀態,以各自看到的碰撞一刻來議論關員是否刻意碰打駕駛者,或者說“駕駛者有錯不代表關員沒有錯”把他們分割開來獨立議論,我覺得比較搞笑,而標少進而建議以誤殺罪作控告,就更加似怪論。
作為標少的長期讀者,怎麼不感受到標少的“心有執著”呢?心有執著也不一定完全是貶意,例如沒有執著,李後主的詞哪會這麽好看?
我根本就不想纏擾, 所以講完法律就沒有進一步討論, 也接納各人有自己看法。案情細節應由警方確立, 警察索取法律意見時就會向律政司詳細交代。你喜歡講案情, 我就憑以往處理交通案的經驗同你講幾句。你說司機跟關員相距約50米, 該路段時速50kmph, 司機若超速逃走, 假設他開70kmph, 也可以配合指責他危險的講法, 70 kmph 1秒行20米, 兩秒半就可到達關員位置。一個職業司機的平均煞車反應時間是0.8秒, (我講的不是煞車距離, 是response time), 一般人的煞車反應時間約需1.5秒, 反應慢的可能要2.5秒。我當死者屬反應快的, 但他見到前面有個市民要攔截他, 而不是軍裝警員, 他大概要思考怎去反應, 而不是煞車的反應, 所以我認為他沒減速而只作閃避, 我沒有說過司機合法合理, 討論焦點集中在控告甚麼罪。我看到YouTube footage都沒評論, 直至看到警方以干預汽車罪拘捕關員才指出控罪錯誤, 講錯誤當然要講正確的, 所以才說是誤殺。如果當時是行beat的軍裝警員踏出馬路攔截, 討論方向會完全不同了。我指關員的行為是非法的, 建基於此才考慮誤殺。
刪除有幸標少留言,但我説的是“起碼50米”,不是實説50米,而且目視不知車速(肯定不是開單車的車速),我點出而你現在也同意的是要清晰兩人踫觸前各自的反應時間。而這點,和司機有沒有加速,沒專業計算和更多錄像下大概你我都不知道,在不知道下誰能下斷語?另,明顯地司機沒有從錄像的第一刻就作閃避——他是直往關員直奔而來,只是到最後的0.2秒才作閃避,那是保自己的命,所以我才有上文“兩人都期望錯了”的描述。
刪除真理越辯90越明,我再講一次,二個合理的人,就完全相同的事實(或大致相同的事實),作出完全相反的結論,兩個結論都可以同時是合理(不一定是普通人常犯的錯誤,因為結論A同B是完全相反的,所以A對,B 一定是錯)
刪除謝謝匿名君和標少再次留言!這些留言更加清晰表達了他們是從不同角度去看事件,我在前文說’’司機有錯不等於關員無錯,兩者並非互相排斥’’並非好似匿名君所言,把兩者的行為獨立來考量!不同意評論完全忽略‘’碰撞之前嘅狀態,只從司機同關員碰撞前一刻決定關員是否刻意拍打司機’’,亦不覺得’’司機有錯並不等於關員無錯‘’這句說話有什麼搞笑的地方,我這樣說是因為看到太多的評論說關員嘅行為冇錯都係建基於司機做錯(例如警察閃燈不停下來,行車證過期,超速等),所以不應受到檢控,
但問題係是法律上關員有冇觸犯某條法例,並不一定(不是一定不)受司機行為去決定,這裏不是法庭,不可能完全掌握所有嘅資料,我們只可以從看到的初步資料(例如網上YouTube的影片),然後推斷車速,合理估算司機關員碰撞前見10秒8秒鐘的心理狀態等等作出初步評論!從標少的進一步留言可以看到他最初嘅評論只是指出警方以干預汽車罪拘捕關員是錯誤,才提出可以考慮更嚴重嘅罪名(誤殺),標少已經列出四個誤殺罪嘅元素,認為四個元素都確立!但亦有人(例如Thomas 兄)認為’’該行為是非法的’’是有斟酌嘅地方!因為單單企在馬路中心跳來跳去嘗試截停行駛中的汽車(就算係高速行駛)並不算是非常危險嘅動作(記住單單)因爲他不是突然衝出來,再加上律政司的檢控守則,其中兩個檢控原則,(1)公衆利益、(2)檢控勝數機會,他們的確可以基於以上(1)原因,公例如關員是基於協助警方的良好動機,並同時他的行為過於魯莽,危險等和(2) 勝算太低,例如政府律師,甚至徵詢外間律師意見都認為單從影片所見,辯方律師好容意找到合理辯解去說服陪審團!
這都是合理推斷!標少最初說可以檢控殺罪(現在澄清了,只說考慮檢控),Thomas說不應檢控,可能是公衆利益,但更多是likeness of success (案件勝算機會)!我個人覺得全部都係合理推斷,結論不同,雖然我個人仍然認為律政司應該考慮以更嚴重的罪行(誤殺)去檢控(最少唔係干預汽車),除非警方發現更有利關員同對司機不利的證據(倒如司機車速不是70 k而是140).
更正’’關員行為沒有過於魯莽,危險’’
刪除再補充一點!有看過很多KOL關於這件事的評論及各看觀留言!發覺好少好似標少這樣,單純從法律講,其他KOL都是多從案情其中一部份講,他們多數都係法律行外人,有部份想博流量,例如如果自己嘅支持者,大部份都係親建制,無論係親,香港政府,中國政府,就傾向支持海關職員,小部份仲捩橫折曲折,例如話無論海關做什麼,就算真係主動伸手攔截電單車司機,都係司機咎由自取,佢係咪身有屎?為什麼不停車?關員係幫助警察執法,應該獲好市民獎!因為佢哋如果唔係咁講!就可能會流失觀眾!另一方面,有些是反建制的KOL就堅決支持電單車車司機,認為他所犯嘅交通條例係好小事(有些網站的KOL甚至發現原來電單車司機嘅保險同行車證都冇過期,警察亮燈,可能根本同電單車司機無關,當然亦有可能真的同電單車司機有關,不過警察只係發覺電單車嘅車牌掛得唔係好,想提醒司機,不過唔知真定假,一面倒認為司機雖然有錯,但係只係小事,唔青松穿着制服嘅執法人員指示,只是罰款$1000!海關嘅行為係極之危險魯莽,跳出馬路蓄意干擾高速行駛中嘅車輛,最少都可能犯襲擊罪,現在電單車司機死亡,可以控誤殺,甚至謀殺罪!完全冇考慮電單車司機,如果真係極度超速例如120Km 以上, 而關員已經在一段好長嘅距離站在路中央揮手示意你減速或停車,根據交通條例司機係應該減速或停車(忠言關員站在馬路中央有不對)!
刪除他們政治立場很不同,唔多唔小會影響佢哋嘅判斷,但更多是他們是法律門外漢!對於刑事法律,交通條例,證據法,檢控守則,一概不通!好難期望佢哋有什麼高見!看完一笑置之便算!但最奇怪的是有些KOL是法律界人事,包括二位陳姓律師,大律師,一位什麼X師傅(雖然唔係律師,但好似有法律學位)!他們都深受深藍陣營支持!他們的意見唔似受過嚴謹嘅法律訓練!又或者為咗博流量同Die Hard fans嘅支持!一定要講到全部都係電單車司機嘅錯,然後電單車司機有錯,海關人員就係冇錯啦!你只要看看嗰啲深藍支持者的言論,大部份都好似係未受過教育!思想停留在幾百年前!以為先犯法的司機有錯,就表示關員一定冇犯法(你當然可以作出辯解,法官同陪審團接受你就可以脫罪,大部份支持者嘅質素係咁,亦可看出KOL嘅質素! 希望嗰啲有法律背景嘅KOL都可以從法律觀點去評論這件事!
標少這個blog一直都係以法論法(唔知咁樣算唔算有執念,知道唔完全係貶詞,我都好鍾意李後主的詞),相對比較客觀!
謝謝Steve相告, 我完全沒留意這課題的討論, 只有一次看到明報講警察以干預汽車罪拘捕, 同一篇也報導了兩個律師的看法, 因為沒有人講干預汽車罪不妥當我才開筆。論法當然先有案情作基礎, 然後才有應用正確的法律來審視, 檢控與否繼而從檢控守則啄磨。前副庭長楊大人曾以一股歪風來形容戴教授牽頭的社會運動, 現在的香港又何嘗不是吹着另一股歪風。Apolitical的評論一向是四面受敵的, 身陷其中就四面楚歌, 只有抽離去批判才不會陷入其中。
刪除我也回一下Steve - 所以我一直用「路人」而不是「關員」去形容. 或者標少用的「死者」.
刪除在目前香港的怪誕氛圍, 提及「警察」「關員」這些字眼必定會引來大量bias - 很多網民一見到是執法人員涉案就會爭著歸隊. 盲反的很多, 盲撐的也不少. 視乎你過去的觀看歷史, 演算法會給你看其中一方.
Can’t agree more !
刪除完全同意標少講’’我們可以各抒己見提出不同觀點的討論係一種享受,有誰能講絕對的對錯,法律也只是制度上的裁判,我們服從也可以不同意論據.
回覆刪除Thomas 兄的論據亦刺激我有新的想法!例如:除了公衆利益以外,likelihood of success 都是律政司決定是否提出檢控一項重要因素.
但我重新檢視這個因素後,仍然覺得律政司應該提出檢控,因為我認為入罪機會雖然唔可以說特別高(高低係相對的,但亦唔可以說特別低(例如接近毫無勝算機會-如果真係這樣律政司當然應該放棄檢控)
Thomas 兄提出律政司好難毫無合理疑點去證明路人是選擇(1)還是(2) 的場景,認為選擇(1)就合法,選擇(2)就係唔合法!但我個人認為無論是途人當時的心態是(1)希望對方看到自己而停車,還是(2)用各種物理嘅方式強行令高速嘅電單車停下來並不是決定該行為是否合理的重點!重點是走出馬路中心跳來跳去干擾高速行駛嘅電單車是否一個對司機及其他道路使用者一種非常危險的行為並且一個合理的人是應該知道該行為是非常危險.我個人認為是!事實上正如標少所講干擾馬路上行駛嘅汽車(特別這次是一架高速行駛嘅電單車)已經構成襲擊罪!而該襲擊行為導致車司機死亡!當然入罪機會亦可能係個別檢控人員主觀判斷,法官都有所謂‘’釘官‘’,傾向判有罪,所以我仍然認為如果所有定罪因素都存在,除非有重大公眾利益並且
幾乎沒有入罪機會先會不提出檢控!
Steve:
回覆刪除我並不認為「走出馬路中心跳來跳去干擾」本身足以證明那是「非常危險的行為」.
我以前也常駕駛電單車. 當時路人在很遠距離就已經走到馬路中心(要不然攝錄者也不會無緣無故攝錄). 路人也沒有任何視野障礙,【電單車必然是老早就見到路人攔截的】. 但電單車選擇不減速.
需要強調的是, 路人不是在最後一刻才跑出來攔截的. 路人也不是用強燈之類的方式干擾電單車手(這個例子源自之前貼過的SCOTUS案件). 電單車是有大量機會去選擇勇往直前還是盡責減速的.
至於是否構成襲擊罪就要起訴, 我同樣也是不同意的. 例子就是上面的YouTube片段.
該路人未至於是英雄也不應該是罪犯. 這案件更適合的是作為民事訴訟.
尊重Thomas 兄的看法!
回覆刪除兩個合理的人就完全相同的事實,作出完全相反的結論,兩個結論可以同樣是合理!
陸建廷律師有戀童癖點解可以做事務律師?
回覆刪除討厭加討厭!
刪除討厭加討厭加討厭!!!
刪除梁家傑資深大律師鼓吹暴力有冇違反香港法律?
回覆刪除https://hk.on.cc/hk/bkn/cnt/news/20190723/mobile/bkn-20190723163912339-0723_00822_001.html
討厭加討厭加討厭!!!
刪除討厭加討厭!
回覆刪除區穎麟律師濫用法律程序Solicitor Au Wing Lun William Abuse of Process (Says Judge Poon) - Au Wing Lun v Tam Mei Kam [2007] HKCFI 719
回覆刪除事務律師謝延豐係罪犯 Solicitor O Tse Convicted Criminal
回覆刪除https://apps.sfc.hk/edistributionWeb/gateway/EN/news-and-announcements/news/doc?refNo=25PR1
Delay in Paying Counsel = Misconduct Conviction 事務律師遲找大律師費被釘牌! 點解會有事務律師遲找大律師費咁低能?釘牌嗰喎 - Principles 12.04 and 12.05 of the Hong Kong Solicitors’ Guide to Professional Conduct Volume 1.
回覆刪除http://www.hk-lawyer.org/content/tang-ming-fai-joseph-respondent
標少呢個post係講緊電單車手死亡,同海關職員出手攔截事件引起嘅法律問題!你係咁post啲律師專業失當嘅Links有乜意思?
回覆刪除條有成日忘記食X,咪鬼理佢!
刪除有病請看醫生!
回覆刪除無得醫喇, 我以前也刪過, 又繼續貼, 唯有置若罔聞, 視之為以前一大堆洗版式的貼文或五毛文宣, 完全不去看和不回應就好了, 否則就上當。
刪除理解!睇嚟標少已經破咗自己嘅地獄,近年睇得好化!都係啱嘅,上咗年紀最緊要身體健康,心情愉快,享受生活!
刪除Hi Steve, 我需要自我改正一點: 當時沒有攝錄者, 是行車紀錄儀拍下來的影像. 我無法用「攝錄者也不會無緣無故攝錄」作為理由去支持「路人在很遠距離就已經走到馬路中心」一點.
回覆刪除「路人是什麼時候跑到路上能給電單車看到」這一項issue of fact需要看到行車紀錄儀的完整影像才能判定. 可惜目前網上的片段並沒有完整影像.
Thomas兄真是一位非常認真的人!我估計你一定是受過嚴格法律訓練的人(就算唔係律師),正如我之前所講,我們只可以從網上看到有限嘅資料,作初步嘅推斷,只有警方同律政司在決定檢控前看到全部有關證據資料,然後決定檢控或者不檢控,法庭的定罪標準更高!翁靜晶律師都講出有時一些些微的細節就可以影響到最終嘅判決(結局就會完全相反)!有時天意弄人,這件事對司機同路人都係不幸,甚至係悲劇!
回覆刪除If Thomas is the same person I encountered in court some 30 odd years ago, he was a barrister then. He is now practicing in another jurisdiction.
刪除Barrister with over 30 years of experience! wow , not surprising !
刪除Hi Bill Siu, I'm afraid I'm not the person you met 30 years ago. :(
回覆刪除I'm much younger than him. I do, however, practice in NY.
搵一期講下古代斷獄仲好啦
回覆刪除Why not his act reflects an intend?? Did you see that the traction inherent to his stroke 招式 showing his determination to have the victim's neck broken??
回覆刪除https://www.facebook.com/share/r/197iEs6RxC/?mibextid=wwXIfr
回覆刪除趙「博」又露底了, 唔識AI又老充扮識, 亂噏當秘笈, 亂評Deepseek R1, 結果被一些有識之士打臉
回覆刪除Deepseek R1 Explained by a Retired Microsoft Engineer
刪除https://youtu.be/r3TpcHebtxM?si=WgMI8mgLXXTpQ7aP
Deepseek 是否抄襲ChatGPT? 實測Deepseek 離線運行
刪除https://youtu.be/NjYMPBeOZaw?si=57qwXt3E8mNtAScZ
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趙「博」的前腦細, 老蕭更離譜, 九噏唔使擇日子
祝標少及各位萬事勝意、蛇年大吉!
回覆刪除請問有無人,可以解釋下,其實個定罪條件係點?
回覆刪除個官話警員供詞誠實可靠,即係相信佢有跪地,合十,有人俾錢?
但係又罪脫?
即係個官同時又相信被告所講既版本係有可能既,個涉案紙箱唔係屬於被告既?
https://thewitnesshk.com/%e4%ba%94%e6%97%ac%e6%bc%a2%e8%a2%ab%e6%8e%a7%e8%a1%8c%e4%b9%9e%e7%8d%b2%e5%88%a4%e7%84%a1%e7%bd%aa/
Benefit of doubt是我們刑事法判決被告無罪一個核心的概念, 任何在法官席前受審的被告, 步入法庭時都是假設清白的。無法律學者或殿堂級的法官會界定甚麼叫合理疑點, 所以合理疑點並非很具體的東西。有時見到法官所謂的合理疑點其實一點也不合理, 一般情況是沒有人深究的, 因為事實裁斷是不能上訴的, 除非裁斷本身有悖於常理或弄錯了案情事實, 在那種情況下屬於error of law就可以上訴。以本案而言, 控罪元素十分簡單: 在公眾地眾方, 乞取或收取施捨。控方證據是警察目睹被告在公眾地方, 面前放置了紙箱, 行人施捨後他合十點頭, 更收起金錢。我就完全看不到合理疑點, 應該不接納被告的解釋。如果沒有紙箱, 被告也沒收起金錢, 還有可能是途人誤會了流浪漢在乞錢而自動解囊, 那種情況下acquit on benefit of doubt就合情合理。不過, 我只依賴連結的傳媒報導作評論, 沒有參考價值。
刪除完全認同標少. 以上案情(as stated in 法庭線報導)我看不到有任何合理疑點. 我甚至認為裁判官作出法律上錯誤︰「未能完全否定被告說法,因此在疑點利益歸於被告下,裁定罪名不成立」. 定罪標準是beyond reasonable doubt, 而不是必然要「完全否定被告說法」. 這是對定罪標準的錯誤理解.
刪除可能香港人看TVB看得太多, 經常滿口「在疑點利益歸於被告下, ___獲判無罪」. 問題從來不是疑點利益歸於誰, 而是在於爭議中的疑點是不是合理疑點. 如果不是合理的疑點, 其利不利益, 歸被告還是控方, 什麼事?
另一問題是以下:
刪除「梁續指,被告雙手合十,不時向途人點頭,一名菲律賓籍女子經過時,在錢包取出 10 元紙幣及扔入紙箱,被告向對方雙手合十、不斷點頭。」「他稱,其後再有一名中國籍女子,將兩個 5 元硬幣扔入紙箱,被告先後將紙幣及硬幣放入斜揹袋。」
「被告在控方盤問下,否認涉案紙箱屬他,亦否認向途人點頭、將金錢放入斜揹袋。」
上面控辯證供已明顯有矛盾,只能有一人說真話。裁判官雖認為「警員供詞誠實可靠」, 但又說「被告聲稱坐在銀行外休息的說法,也並非不可能」. 即究竟裁判官有沒有作出fact-finding on被告有沒有向途人點頭及將錢放入斜揹袋? 還是裁判官認為只要有被告「坐在銀行外休息」的可能性就不需要考慮這些事實判定? 「坐在銀行休息」及「向途人點頭及將錢放入斜揹袋」是mutually exclusive的嗎?
除非法庭線報導失實, 否則該裁判官也開了我不少眼界.
我想講本案以外的一些觀察。有些官可能未搞清楚甚麼是reasonable doubt, 在自己猶豫不決的情況下, 以reasonable doubt來判決, 用事實裁斷(factual finding)來解決一切問題, 連法律問題也可以避而不談, 濫用reasonable doubt, 可以避過很多需要書寫上訴的情況。有時只要花多一些思考時間, 疑竇迎刃而解。簡單的案情, 一面審已可以一面作周詳的思考, 滴水不漏。現在有不少人根本不合格。
刪除標少上面應該是想說「[避開/逃避]用事實裁斷(factual finding)來解決一切問題」?
刪除媒體報導的這案件給我的感覺就是法官想逃避作出事實裁斷去判定誰說謊話, 而亂用benefit of the doubt去解決. 但這更像是民事訴訟中法官不想作出summary judgment (upon the existence of triable issues of fact)的心態. 但你是裁判官呀. 你是fact-finder呀. 案件都到了最後一步了, 你不判定事實由誰來判定?
P.S. 補充上帖, 我還真從來沒看過「疑點利益歸於被告」這種說法作為宣告無罪的理由在英文出現. 難道是"The defendant is hereby acquitted as the benefit of the doubt is given to him"麼? 這聽起來就不知所云.
Usually it is like this: The defendant is acquitted on benefit of doubt.
刪除謝謝. "The defendant is acquitted on benefit of doubt"這句我會理解為「出於此案中的疑點, 本席宣告被告無罪」.
刪除但經常在香港聽到的「因為疑點利益歸於被告, 所以被告無罪」類似的句式從來都令我丈八金剛.
Jo Haylen 咁講算唔算認錯
回覆刪除https://amp.abc.net.au/article/104895424