2017年2月22日星期三

從七警案的判刑, 看法官的判案步驟

香港受到政治氣候的影響下, 近年司法機構也變成磨心。十幾年來, 搞社會運動涉及示威遊行、非法集結、行為不檢、阻街等的控罪, 審訊經歷三級法院(裁判法院、高院及終審法院)的審訊及上訴, 逐步釐清了這些控罪在法律上的元素, 以及牽涉《人權法》、《基本法》及一些國際公約賦予平民權利義務方面的解說。經終院闡釋後, 下級法院在審案時比以前更易處理法律爭拗。以前建制人士不會批評法官, 只有泛民及激進社會運動人士罵法官。可是到了近年, 建制人士也開始罵官了, 不止罵官, 還會罵娘。一下子甚麼監察法官判案, 甚麼警拉官放等一干言論, 甚囂塵上。七警被定罪和判監兩年之後, 這股罵官氣氛被推上高潮, 連警察也罵官了, 又說會按章工作。不少人提出近期個別判決, 譬如襲警脫罪、暴徒輕判感化, 衝擊政府機構判社會服務令等例子, 來證明「黃官」的偏頗。我寫這一篇是預了給人罵的。我一直以來都被人罵撐警, 現在連撐警的人都罵起我來。罵就無需講道理, 罵我無妨, 有沒有道理都可以罵人, 這是言論自由賦予我們的權利。我罵得人多, 被別人罵也可能活該, 但道理我還是想講的。

我寫這一篇有兩個目的, 其一, 粗略分析一下法官判刑的準則, 其二, 上一篇有讀者在留言留下一篇文章的連結, 是香島中學鄧飛校長在《文匯報》發表一篇叫《用法治的方式解決法治中可能存在的問題》的文章, 我從鄧校長的文章學習之餘, 也寫一下香港法院在判刑一致性方面的法律原則。我不是為了反駁鄧校長的觀點而寫, 而是見到他在文章末兩段講英國的情況, 我借香港上訴庭一宗案例來講香港、英國及澳洲三地對判刑一致性(parity)的思維。

罵警拉官放的人其實也希望警拉官放吧, 他們不是很希望Dufton判七警無罪嗎? 如果Dufton判七警無罪, 到其時就輪到非建制的人罵警拉官放了。即是說, 只要法官釘你想釘的人, 而放你的同路人就可以了。那麼法官變成磨心, 兩面不討好, 該怎辦? 咿, 來個網上投票, 順應民情來判案好嗎? Majority wins. 一於搞判案雷動計劃, 發動網民來決定是釘是放, 符合民主精神, 豈不美哉? 真正維護法治, 不是那種一方面講維護法治, 另一方面收受利益, 也不是講贏了法治輸了公義、七警不是故意打人那類廢話。Dufton判這件案, 仔細考慮了影片呈堂的法律爭拗, 涉案人身份的爭論, 也衡量證據事實, 詳盡解釋了理據, 寫了817段判辭。不滿這裁決, 請從這判案書找空間去上訴, 沒有入會阻你, 而不是發動種族歧視去罵這洋法官, 罵就找判詞的錯處來罵。判刑可以批評嗎? 當然可以, 不過要用法律去批評, 說他判得輕和判得重, 都要提出實質理據。

法官判刑是隨心所欲的嗎? 基本上法官可以有兩種途徑去決定怎樣量刑。其一, 司法機構有判案的Manual, 提供給不同工種的各級法官作為參考, 這種Manual是時常更新的, 民事、刑事、家事、各種審裁處、死因庭諸如此類, 都各有判刑及程序指引, 這些Manual只有法官才看到, 因為要從司法機構的內聯網登入, 公眾接觸不到。其二, 參考Sentencing In Hong Kong這本書, 這書是由前刑事檢控專員江樂士及他的下屬前助理刑事檢控專員張維新共同撰寫的, 現已出到第七版。法官判案的量刑基本上參考這些東西, 參考了也難免同一個官, 判同一件案(超過一名被告)會出現不一致的刑罰, 因為裏面涉及很多不同因素, 年齡、背景、案底、犯法的角色等, 都足以使判刑時出現各被告刑罰不一樣的情況。同一個官, 判不同的案就更加千變萬化了。不同的法官, 處理同類形和不同類形的案就更加不會一致。再加上有些法官仁慈, 有些法官嚴厲, 根本無可能會一樣。七警遇到另一位法官可能脫了罪, 定罪也未必判多過15個月, 根本沒有對錯可言, 有人會把量刑起點降低, 再把求情因素增大, 就會出現很不一樣的結果了。如果案情特別, 沒有可作參考的案例, 就靠法官個人看法去判刑了。七警案可算是這種情況。

這種不一致, 就帶入鄧飛校長的宏文提出的論據。我講了不是要反駁, 而是用香港案例來展示香港法院的思維。在吳敏兒案 (HKSAR v Ng Man Yee CACC 278/2013), 上訴庭副庭長 Stock及上訴庭法官McWalters (不好意思, 那些不喜歡老外法官的, 這兩位是老外, 而且以前都是在律政司工作的), 在判辭中講了判刑是否一致的原則:
40.  When disparity of sentence is the ground of appeal we note that in the High Court of Australia decision of Lowe v The Queen (1984) 154 CLR 606 Mason J expressed the view that the fact that the sentence is not a just sentence is a ground for appellate intervention notwithstanding that the injustice is generated by error arising in proceedings other than those of the appellant.  At page 613 he said:
“The sentence under appeal may be free from error except in so far as discrepancy itself constitutes or causes error. And the justification which the courts assign for intervention in the case of disparity is that disparity engenders a justifiable sense of grievance in the applicant and an appearance of injustice to that impassive representative of the community, the objective bystander.” [5]
41.  These views were subsequently followed by the majority of the High Court in Green v The Queen (2011) 244 CLR 462 where French CJ, Crennan and Kiefel JJ said at page 475, paragraph 32:
“32 A court of criminal appeal deciding an appeal against the severity of a sentence on the ground of unjustified disparity will have regard to the qualitative and discretionary judgments required of the primary judge in drawing distinctions between co-offenders. Where there is a marked disparity between sentences giving rise to the appearance of injustice, it is not a necessary condition of a court of criminal appeal’s discretion to intervene that the sentence under appeal is otherwise excessive. Disparity can be an indicator of appealable error (88). It is also correct, as Mason J said in Lowe, that logic and reality combine to favour the proposition that discrepancy is a ground for intervention in itself (89). Unjustifiable disparity is an infringement of the equal justice norm. It is appealable error, although it may not always lead to an appeal being allowed.”
42.  It is important to recognize that whether a disparity between sentences is an unjustifiable one, thereby resulting in an unjust sentence, does not fall to be determined by the subjective feelings of the offender whose sentence is under appeal.  As the majority said in Green at page 474, paragraph 31:
“31. … The sense of grievance necessary to attract appellate intervention with respect to disparate sentences is to be assessed by objective criteria. The application of the parity principle does not involve a judgment about the feelings of the person complaining of disparity …”
43.  In Hong Kong the objective test that has been applied is that expounded by Lawton LJ in Fawcett (1983) 5 Cr App R (S) 158 which he described at page 161 as:
“… would right-thinking members of the public, with full knowledge of all the relevant facts and circumstances, learning of this sentence consider that something had gone wrong with the administration of justice?” [6]
44.  The argument in the present case seeks to extend disparity of sentence as a ground of appeal beyond co-offenders to a disparity in sentence between wholly unrelated offenders; here the applicant and other persons sentenced for the same type of criminal activity but in respect of completely unrelated crimes. In considering whether such an extension should be permitted it is helpful to have an understanding of the legal foundation of the parity principle.  This was explained by the majority in Green.  They said at page 473, paragraphs 28-29:
“28. … Consistency in the punishment of offences against the criminal law is “a reflection of the notion of equal justice” and “is a fundamental element in any rational and fair system of criminal justice” (75). It finds expression in the “parity principle” which requires that like offenders should be treated in a like manner (76). As with the norm of “equal justice”, which is its foundation, the parity principle allows for different sentences to be imposed upon like offenders to reflect different degrees of culpability and/or different circumstances (77). [7]
29. … The consistency required by the parity principle is focused on the particular case. It applies to the punishment of “co-offenders”, albeit the limits of that term have not been defined with precision.” [8]
45.  As can be seen from this passage the parity principle is confined in its application to co-offenders.  Likewise, in Hong Kong where there is long line of authority that limits disparity of sentence as a ground of appeal to co-offenders sentenced differently by the same judge.[9] It has never been extended to offenders charged with the same offence arising out of completely unrelated criminal conduct.
46.  Nor, has it been so extended in England. In the English case of Large (1981) 3 Cr. App. R (S) 80 the Court of Appeal refused to entertain a submission that there was disparity of sentencing between the sentence imposed on the appellant and sentences imposed by the same judge on other offenders for the same offence but who were participants in completely unrelated crimes.  At page 82 the Court said:
“This Court declines to entertain such a submission. By reason of the appeals which consistently come before it the Court is aware of the general level of sentencing throughout the country. If, when individual sentences are being considered, it was permissible for counsel to analyse sentences passed by other judges on other occasions for other offences the work of this Court would come to a standstill. It would occupy the time of the Court to an inordinate extent and would do no more than draw its attention to the sentencing practice of a particular judge on a particular occasion in circumstances quite different from those with which the Court is immediately concerned. We will consider the matter of disparity when it arises in respect of participants in the same offence who have received different sentences for the parts that they played in the offence. Where it appears that for similar involvement in the offence the offenders have received very different sentences it is a warning sign that something may possibly have gone wrong with one or more of the sentences.”
47.  The New South Wales Supreme Court adopted a similar view in Kardoulias v The Queen (2005) 159 A Crim R 252.  After accepting that what in Australia is referred to as the parity principle applies to co‑offenders, the Court of Criminal Appeal said at page 274, paragraph 106:
“However, the parity principle is not to be applied when a ground of appeal invites comparison between sentences imposed upon two offenders who are not co-offenders simply because the two offenders may have similar characteristics and may have committed similar crimes.”
48.  There is nothing in the judgment of the High Court in Green to suggest that the parity principle can inure to the benefit of persons other than co-offenders; nor is there in English or in Hong Kong case law.  All three jurisdictions speak with one voice.  The only occasion that relativity to other offenders’ sentences will create a justified sense of grievance is when the relativity concerns sentences imposed on persons who participated in the same offence as the offender.  That is not, of course, the position here.
49.  Outside of this situation it is for each applicant to demonstrate error or excessiveness in his own case.  A sentence otherwise appropriate for the level of that offender’s culpability does not become unjust simply by reference to an erroneous or unduly lenient sentence imposed on another offender in an unrelated crime.
50.  That being so, it cannot be said that other erroneous or unduly lenient sentences imposed in unconnected cases involving the same offence, provide an offender receiving a heavier sentence than those imposed in these other unconnected cases, with a justified sense of injustice.  It does not seem to us that it matters what the reason is for the alleged disparity between the cases; whether it be one judge being more lenient than another or the prosecutor selecting the wrong venue for trial.  Whatever the reason, the principle remains the same – the parity principle only applies to co-offenders.
51.  We do not doubt that this applicant and his family may not understand why others involved in more serious money laundering activity have been sentenced apparently more leniently but, for the reasons we have given, this does not entitle this applicant to harbour a justified sense of injustice.

我沒有本事去翻譯, 一言以蔽之, 判刑的一致性只適用於同案的被告(the parity principle only applies to co-offenders)。時下聽到批評法官判刑, 甚麼黃絲藍絲的, 有沒有人認真去硏究孰輕孰重的因由, 連那些所謂法律學者也在胡謅, 又怎能怪一般市民。以我自己觀察, 事實上確有些不太稱職的法官, 也有些遇到棘手案件就以案情事實來判被告無罪的法官。世界不是完美的, 制度也不能說不存缺陷的, 在社會撕裂分化之下, 才會因感性充昏了理性, 七警案的審判結果使這種情緒完全發酵。我尚算有幸, 沒有置身於瘋癲之中, 還可以提出理性討論, 盡量撇開個人情感去思考。我不是睡不著輾轉反側才去思考, 我住在悉尼十多年, 有機會把兩地發生的事情作比較, 像曾蔭權那類案, 在澳洲, 官商利益輸送無日無之, 在澳洲那些官員, 給捅出來就只有撤職, 像影片落畫, 從來都不會被檢控。香港在法治方面的成績, 真的很不錯了, 把香港的法治精神輸到這裏來, 恐怕不少官員已鋃鐺入獄了。香港警察來澳洲做, 就會更舒適, 很少機會被辱罵, 動了粗也很多人撐你, 分別在於社會的氣氛很不相同。今時今日在香港當差不是一份筍工, 但尚算是一份好工。

95 則留言:

  1. http://hk.on.cc/hk/bkn/cnt/news/20170222/bkn-20170222100229190-0222_00822_001.html

    How about Donald Tsang? 20 months correct?

    前特首曾蔭權爵士貪腐案今早在高等法院判刑,現年72歲的前特首曾蔭權爵士早前被裁定一項公職人員行為失當罪罪成,高等法院早上10時開庭判刑,判監20個月。至下午12時43分,曾蔭權由囚車押走,並於下午1時許押抵荔枝角收押所。廉署發言人指,尊重法官所作的判刑。

    法官在宣判前表示,公職人員行為失當罪最高判刑7年,嚴重涉及貪污的或會判足7年。本案嚴重性在於被告身為特首,香港人及中央政府對他的誠信有期望,本案牽涉行會對數碼廣播牌照的重要決定,故判刑起點30個月。

    法官續指,被告同事朋友雖撰信求情,亦認同被告98年打擊金融風暴大鱷表現突出,以及其40年服務香港的貢獻,因此作出10個月刑期扣減,強調無理由判緩刑,法官指判刑已考慮行會審批雄濤牌照時遇到的反對少,否則判刑會更重,最終判入獄20個月。

    法官在判刑時指行政長官不單是地方首長,且要向香港人及中央政府負責,且獲香港人及中央政府的信任,斥被告是違反誠信。

    法官特別提到,本案判刑相當困難,表示是他為官以來,未試過遇到如此高級官員由高位墜落;而在判刑後,有記者大聲在庭內提問曾是否不滿意判刑,但曾並無回答。

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    1. When Hon Macrae JA sentenced Rafael Hui, His Lordship said this,

      "I turn finally to the 1st defendant, Mr Rafael Hui. I can well remember the time when you, Mr Hui, were appointed Chief Secretary in 2005. Your appointment came to many people as a welcome breath of fresh air after some difficult times in our history. You were highly regarded, articulate, diplomatic, and obviously able. And had it not been for this case, you would probably have gone down in history as one of Hong Kong's finest Chief Secretaries in recent years.

      Unfortunately, like all tragic characters, you had a flaw. Whether one uses the pejorative word "greed" or puts it more kindly, that you were blinded by the desire to sustain the high life to which you had become accustomed, it is quite clear to me that you were very adept at using your anticipated position to gain as much advantage for yourself, in breach of your duty and the trust placed in you by those who welcomed your appointment.

      The evidence I have heard and read in this case has at times raised my eyebrows. There has been a perception for many years of a culture in Hong Kong of government and business leaders cosying up to one another. The press have an expression for it in Cantonese, and regrettably this case will have done nothing to dispel that perception. It is vitally important in these times that Hong Kong's government and business community remain and are seen to remain corruption-free, particularly when the mainland is taking obvious and positive steps to eradicate the cancer of corruption in their own jurisdiction.

      High-ranking officials in particular owe a duty not only to the government of Hong Kong but to the people of Hong Kong whom they represent, and who expect them to act in the public interest and not their own selfish interest.

      The breach of that duty and trust is a significant aspect of your criminality in this case. Hong Kong has fought hard and long, since the 1970s, to rid itself of corruption. To know that the former number 2 in government had received bribes must be a deep disappointment to many people in Hong Kong. It is quite clear to me that you were one of the instigators, as well as the beneficiaries, of these conspiracies."

      He passed a sentence of 18 months' imprisonment for the Misconduct in Public Office which did not involve bribery or corruption. Is it analogous to Donald Tsang's sentence? Yet, Tsang held the highest position in the Government. the severity of the charge because of his position should attract a higher sentence. To me, 20 months is not a term sufficiently reflects the gravity.

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  2. 再加一句回應鄧飛校長講英國Sentencing Council的功能, Hon Macrae JA判許仕仁的刑期時也提及英國的Sentencing Council, Macrae JA said this, "... Hong Kong has long developed its own approach and sentencing jurisprudence to this area of sentencing law."

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    1. 先多謝標少不吝賜教。小弟就是留下鄧飛校長那篇文章連結的讀者。看完標少鴻文,又長知識了!再請教標少,香港司法機構判案時採用的Manual和英國法庭採用的量刑政策指引,相信分別不大吧!

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    2. 今早稍忙, 下午才回應這問題。

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    3. 閣下提出的問題最應該問鄧飛校長, 我不是耍你, 而是相信鄧校長在報章發表見解, 他對港英兩地量刑方面的出發點一定有深入研究。鄧校長文中的一段這樣講:

      「作為普通法發源地的英國,在刑事訴訟的量刑問題上一樣面臨許多類似於今天香港的指責,包括量刑舉證(定罪和量刑是兩個不同的過程)、量刑考慮因素、輕重標準等。在1950年代末,英國成立Streatfield委員會,研究包括量刑在內的所有刑事法庭事務。委員會的最後報告承認,量刑不一致在當時普遍存在,首次建議應該制定一部守則(handbook)去規範量刑。這正式開啟了作為普通法母國的英格蘭的量刑規範化歷程。1998年,英國議會成立量刑諮詢委員會(SAP)。在2003和2009年先後修訂的《刑事審判法Criminal Justice Ac》中規定,官方成立量刑指導委員會(SGC),後改為量刑委員會(SC),與原本就有權對下級法庭頒佈帶約束力之量刑指引的上訴法庭,聯合發佈量刑政策指引,在司法實踐中對各級法庭的刑事訴訟進行量刑指導。

      這種量刑規範化的機制,在英美西方國家已經成為促進法治進一步完善化的重要元素,為什麼香港在這方面近乎空白?目前香港的量刑指引幾乎僅有上訴庭因應不同罪案頒下的判刑指引,並無上述英國式的量刑委員會,甚至連這方面的啟蒙意識也近乎空白。說到底,香港社會對法治的推崇,類似一種「法治方面的歷史終結論」,是一種靜態的法治觀,當下的法治運作就是最好的,不可質疑的,變成一種對任何司法行為作逃避理性式的盲目信奉,那就更別提進一步改革完善了。」

      我嘗試去找鄧校長所講Streatfield委員會所講的課題, 那是不能下載的, 也涉過百課題, 只可以訂購。我只好去找最update的Sentencing Council的量刑指引來看, 今舉一例, 是有關阻差/拒捕案的判刑的:

      2. Obstruct/resist a police constable in execution of duty (Revised 2017)

      Police Act 1996, s.89(2)
      Effective from: 24 April 2017

      Step 2 – Starting point and category range

      Having determined the category at step one, the court should use the corresponding starting point to reach a sentence within the category range below. The starting point applies to all offenders irrespective of plea or previous convictions.

      Offence Category Starting Point Range
      Category 1 Low level community order Band C fine – Medium level community order
      Category 2 Band B fine Band A fine – Band C fine
      Category 3 Band A fine Conditional discharge – Band B fine

      The court should then consider adjustment for any aggravating or mitigating factors. The following is a non-exhaustive list of additional factual elements providing the context of the offence and factors relating to the offender. Identify whether any combination of these, or other relevant factors, should result in an upward or downward adjustment from the sentence arrived at so far.

      Factors increasing seriousness

      Statutory aggravating factors:

      Previous convictions, having regard to a) the nature of the offence to which the conviction relates and its relevance to the current offence; and b) the time that has elapsed since the conviction
      Offence committed whilst on bail
      Offence motivated by, or demonstrating hostility based on any of the following characteristics or presumed characteristics of the victim: religion, race, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity
      Other aggravating factors:

      Failure to comply with current court orders
      Offence committed on licence or post sentence supervision
      Blame wrongly placed on others
      Injury caused to an officer/another
      Giving false details
      Factors reducing seriousness or reflecting personal mitigation

      No previous convictions or no relevant/recent convictions
      Remorse
      Brief incident
      Acting under direction or coercion of another
      Genuinely held belief if coming to the aid of another, that the other was suffering severe medical difficulty
      Good character and/or exemplary conduct
      Serious medical condition requiring urgent, intensive or long-term treatment
      Age and/or lack of maturity where it affects the responsibility of the offender
      Mental disorder or learning disability
      Sole or primary carer for dependent relatives

      而香港法官的Manual並不包含這種照方執藥的東西, 因為這種東西是量刑的考慮大原則, 是基本的事情, 稍有經驗的律師也知道的。香港的approach是着重上級法院的判例, 譬如在某件案怎判, 另一件又怎判, 在那件案把甚麼因素列作加刑的因素, 都記載在Manual裏。這些判例並不等同判刑指引(tariff), 絕大部份的控罪都沒有經上訴庭訂出指引的, 原因也不複雜, 因為可考慮的元素多, 干犯的程度廣濶, 不易定出指引。斷不能訂出推警察一下怎判, 踼警察一踢又怎判, 激烈反抗又怎判。只能講大原則。

      英國的Sentencing Council主要由法官、主控官及私人執業律師組成, 除此之外包括警方及感化官代表。在我居住的新南威爾斯, Sentencing Council成員更包括有處理原住民事務的人及4名處理受害人方面的人。香港的Manual的編撰和更新, 由該級別的法官負責。Dufton未升上區域法院時, 也有份做更新的工作。所以他對量刑是十分熟悉的。他私人執業時是盡責的律師, 進入司法機構後, 他是盡責的好法官。我只能說, 不服裁決就去上訴好了。儘管我對他的判刑有意見, 也不會因此胡亂批評他。

      說英國的量刑規範化, 其實也未見得可以下這結論。

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    4. 再一次多謝標少百忙中仍抽空賜教。坦白說,小弟任職工程界,並不是甚麼黃絲藍絲,只是茶餘飯後和同事討論此案,當中有幾位讀了法律作為第二個學位,但他們對七警案的看法也沒有標少的分析那麼到位,小弟才冒昧討教,純屬為了滿足求知欲,並非有甚麼政治目的,更談不上要加入聲討杜官的盲流,標少可放心。

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    5. 當人情緒高漲時我冷待, 情緒低落時我鼓勵。我不瘋作一團。

      多謝進來留言, 這裏的捧場客我一個也不認識, 只是有些常客我可以從留言看出他們的修維。世界之大, 知識之廣博, 大家都只是穹蒼下的微塵, 話雖如此, 看法上作交流是有必要的, 否則我們連自己是多細小的塵埃也不知。

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  3. For those who criticised the ethnicity of the judge, they should be informed that it was the defence who elected to have an English trial.

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    1. At first I thought Anthony Kwok was the trial judge because he dealt with the PTR. Then he deputised in the High Court. It was probably the reason Dufton stepped in. After all, the prosecuting counsel is a gweilo too.

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  4. http://news.mingpao.com/ins/instantnews/web_tc/article/20170222/s00001/1487763425856

    香港變成這樣,真係無奈。理性去了哪��?讀書學了什麽?

    Terry

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    1. 如果只睇篇報導,點無奈先?休班警察同家屬都有集會自由。定係依家只係某D人先有集會既權利?

      其實其中一個問題係大家都係在執行公職期間犯案,七個警察就因為咁要坐足24個月,前任特首就竟然因為佢當左幾十年公職而對社會作出貢獻嘅關係,就有10個月嘅扣減。咁係咪代表警察當差其間對社會冇貢獻先?

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    2. 其實依家仲可以上訴,最好等到一切有終審結果後才評論會較恰當。。。

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    3. 匿名,你應該可以在這裡學到兩個案的判決及扣減的分析。問題係你願唔願去放下主觀偏好去理解呢。Terry

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    4. 人多集會當然得人驚, 但相信不是非法集會, 憲法集會自由, 即係大家唔准驚驚青青, 冇見識!!
      Ok, 我有興趣的不是大題目, 歷史因由/教訓/勢力/公義/諸餘此類, 我有興趣的是情以外的理 ------ 即集會的理性目的是甚麼?
      我找了幾篇報導, 綜合如下...
      1.「我們要他們堂堂正正在法庭上洗脫罪名,回家與家人共聚,及重回往日在警隊執警的日子」
      2. 如與會者同意,將去信特首,要求立法保護所有公職人員,在執勤時不被語言或行為侮辱。
      3. 今晚不要討論七警案 (雖然不是目的, 卻是值得一提的禁止目的)

      第三點是我局外人的反高潮, 以為集會是為七警案發表聲音/意見/晒冷, 原來很理性的避此題目。
      第二點果然是早前Bill Blog留言議題之一 ------- 立法成立「侮辱公職人員罪行」, 有趣。
      第一點, 好老實說, 交千零蚊申請上訴便可以開始, 不用半個警隊出來集會吧。

      這三點與公眾有關, 故被我抽了出來研究。 再看清楚, 原來集會目還有的是:
      4. 一是如何支援在獄中的同袍
      5. 二是如何解決目前面對的工作困難,透露獄中的7名同袍精神狀態良好,表達要就案件上訴的意願,唯一擔心是家庭經濟負擔,亦擔心目前影響會影響上訴。警務處長已批准為7名警員接受同袍捐款.........

      集會看來是堂堂正正, 暫時大家不必擔心。
      匿名3:16合理:「如果只睇篇報導,點無奈先?」
      Terry君是否有陰謀論看了出來? 為什麼有理性、讀書諸般質疑?

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    5. 集會自由?"警務人員應經常避免參與任何足以影響其公正執行職務的活動或任何可能使市民誤會會影響其公正執行職務的活動”:《警察通例》6-01(34)
      Btw 冇申請不反對通知書,可能參加埋未經批准集結。

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    6. 原句"憲法集會自由", 冇漏, 係小憲法第二十七條講, 唔係我講。
      Relax, 兩件野只是可能有犯可能冇犯, 又冇資料, 佢地大人大姐, 我先當佢有, 不必討論。
      如果你係警friend, 要有信心;
      如果你係警敵, 匿埋靜靜查;
      如果好似我咁扮中立, 從大題目著手。

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    7. 成班morons 還在爭吵 香港法治 這從未存在的東西 。 最近最明顯的糧油事件不是已經擺明了 一切由支那共產黨說了算! what else is there to talk about?!

      還有上面那個塗Singlish/Chinglish的 cretin 還沒讀好書就急不可待出來顯擺 抑或是用translation engine 來繙譯的?

      馬鹿

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    8. 咪住先, 縱使跟您論點其實是香港法治精神從未存在過, 法治形式還是有的。
      當命運其實是在主人手上, 還未到大審判前, 蟻螻生活忙碌不正是偏向占卜星相運程看掌、自我八卦說三道四中去尋找生存意義嗎?
      一場來搏, 是故還是需要爭吵一下的。

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    9. 睇報導,原來警察係以開會員大會既名義搞既。人地會員多咪出現以萬計開會員大會既場面。照上面既原則,原來以後職工盟開會員大會都要申請不反對通知書啦。點知會唔會所有會員同時出現時有人話係非法集會?

      話時話,今次警察既團結真係近年社會少有,好心班黃絲學下野啦,遊行籌款就團結,到真係做野既時候就鬼打鬼。俾佢地執政咪隨時衰過共產黨?

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    10. 警察自己私人聚會,人多左D嗟,有乜野問題?

      樓上都有師兄話昨晚無討論案情,如何影響到公眾?

      如果咁講法,以後大型宴會過50席都要申請不反對通知書啦,到時泛民政黨開籌款晚會果陣有警察黎查牌唔好怨政府白色恐怖....

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    11. 同意你大部分意思, 不過你講得唔準確。
      呢度係法律搏, with respect, 唯有更正你:
      1. 唔係私人聚會, 兩個會, 員佐督察協會係依法例成立, 不算"私人" in that sense.
      2. 咩50席? 室內? 酒樓? ..... 室外公眾地方, 不要混為一談, 真係要申請。
      法律以外, "人多左D嗟" vs 統計出萬七人, 你不是在寫中文、廣東話了。

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    12. 幾位匿名及1仔
      我相信有人只看新聞標題,沒有看內文便寫下了批評。
      B'J

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    13. 警察遊樂會的確係私人會所喎,一般公眾唔可以入去個喎。。。

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    14. 咦~ 5:22你岩。當時資料圖片原來是「未入場未正式開始」的階段, 雖屬公眾地方但未集會。
      正式集會已魚貫進入了私人處所。有錯當改, 小弟秉承已開的頭("講準確、法律搏"), 修正細節如下..
      1. 唔係私人聚會, 兩個會, 員佐督察協會係依法例成立, 警方自己都話專業及業務性質;
      2. 不是50席, 私人處所集會超過500人, 仍然需要申請。 (公安條例第7條)
      更正不影響個別point論點功能, 整體主旨也不變。

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  5. 七警打曾健超案各被告均判監兩年,你點睇判刑?

    http://lifestyle.etnet.com.hk/column/voting.php?id=796

    投票結果 (11413人參與)

    過重 90%

    過輕 3%

    合理 7%

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    1. 其實呢啲投票有咩意思?如果投票就可以判案,咁有關佔領的案件係咪又應該用公眾投票去判?到時如果投票結果係佢地無罪釋放,你又會唔會服呢?覺得判決有問題,咪上訴囉,用文明用道理用法律去說服人囉,而事實上七警都決定上訴,咁仲有乜好嘈呢?你地係咪想搞亂香港?

      W

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    2. 何只無意思, 簡直危險。

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    3. 喂,係阿石某人嘅「經濟」噃,有乜奇呢

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  6. 七警打曾健超是不對, 但當時各被告可能因為長期應付佔中工作壓力過大, 加上同胞被潑液(等同傷害) 情緒失去控制, 均判監兩年認為過重有 90%----------------

    參考: 飛鏢店東企圖強姦非禮女客判社服

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    1. 這案很難與七警案參考。
      看過非禮案判詞後, 我會說可能是同類型案件判刑最低下限。
      而七警案, 一不是非禮(大家可以衡量話同類, 法官卻無權衡量話同類)、二不是下限而是不認罪沒扣減的起點再提高、三是time factor, 七警你話一時衝動(不受控制), 但"拖去看不見的遠處衝動咁多分鐘"不受衝動心理控制已不成立。

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    2. 你錯了, 當一個人(即使在一個群體內)不斷被另一個群體挑釁, 加上長時間工作和睡眠不足是會引起不受控制的行動, 身體太勞累時,人會不禁大腦思考行動,也可能做出非本意的舉動,容易衝動是睡眠不足的警訊。大型佔領行動亦引起他們的焦慮、悲傷或憤怒。暴躁易衝突等等, 七警應該找個精神科醫生作證明他們是處於精神崩塌的臨界點, 而曾健超潑液是將界點打破, 記得看過一個紀錄片

      澳洲研究:連續一周睡眠不足,反應能力相當於酒駕-

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    3. 匿名1:06, nice try, 你可以, 正如你提議的「應該」, 找來精神科醫生作證明他們是處於精神崩塌的臨界點.
      Before that, your "你錯了" is no merit.
      Remember prove/provide evidence before you claim something unusual?

      你可以「假設」七警係病人既, 不過辯方眾SC唔記得用呢一點姐~

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    4. 都係,通常啲家暴虐殺配偶嗰啲都係咁講。

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    5. 這不是 nice try, 因為我見到班佔中一個個霸道損壞公物都嬲到想...佔中友重覺得好合理

      何況是當時在場的

      七警係精神崩塌的臨界點受佔領行動傷害既病人, 如果在美國很容易

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    6. 退一萬步, 你應該禮貌些: 現提出另一因素, 以取消time factor因素。
      你有你提出, 不代表別人錯。

      最後, 我是根據判後而整理(雙方要提出的已提出、法官接納的已接納) ; 你仍然在判前的盤算中。
      Which ground is stronger, you know it.

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    7. 匿名1:21, nice try 是圍繞"請證明"的。
      你既然不能針對"請證明", 辯駁該英文形容詞是沒意思、無力的。
      你該段也很個人見解、不吐不快、佔中感言, 不是有力的討論。

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    8. 不是, 是因為我曾經在壓迫中做過一些反常行為, 說出一些反常說話, 所以很明白

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    9. 叉頸襲擊讀寫障礙學童 男教師判社服令
      一名患有讀寫障礙小四男生疑因欠交功課和上課表現不佳,先後在不同課室,遭男教師涉嫌「叉頸」襲擊及從後鎖着雙手,男生家長事後報警。35歲男教師吳祖兒早前受審後,被裁定兩項普通襲擊罪成立,今在粉嶺法院被判80小時社會服務令。

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    10. 1仔講的比较有道理
      "三是time factor, 七警你話一時衝動(不受控制), 但"拖去看不見的遠處衝動咁多分鐘"不受衝動心理控制已不成立"
      其实大家無留意七警喺行舊制果班警察
      末入雜差房先打三拳
      啊sir拎轉身 後面啲老散差人就打人
      跟住受害人投訴 呀sir話睇唔到
      今次啲差人被定罪 咪擋找番咁多年打人條數

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    11. 是的,就算拿了醫生證明有病,達至「澳洲研究:連續一周睡眠不足,反應能力相當於酒駕」程度,依這案件細節, 因為Time factor質素問題,應該不能脫罪。
      因為你酒駕式打人,斷斷續續打幾分鐘或說得通,有計畫「拖去遠處暗角」的選擇性行為,需要負酒醉三分醒的責任了。
      B'J

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    12. 如果你話七警俾暴徒搞到有精神問題而犯案,咁講當然可以啦,但問題係七警的代表律師審訊時無用過呢個point喎。點解唔用呢?人地收幾百萬律師費,城中最頂級的大狀,都諗唔到呢個point而得你諗到?

      如果七警真的精神失常,當然未必要坐監啦,但個官分分鐘可以按法例判佢醫院令,即係入小欖精神病治療中心接受治療呀。所以奉勸一句,唔識野就出少句聲當幫忙啦,你諗到人地大狀一早諗到啦!

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    13. 其实香港好多差人濫權
      違法違例
      这里好多读者都唔知
      在佔中丶示威丶遊行差人是苦主 其它的都不是
      差人管有酒吧丶夜總會丶浴室及各式夜場
      通通都無申報上级。
      由以反黑组更甚 如果場主招呼不周隨時揸你牌
      搞到你生意難做無淡好食
      所以勿乱撑差人 要多方面睇

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    14. B'J / 匿名 5:48 & 6:29

      因醉駕出錯和警隊因過度疲勞下仍要服從上級指令繼續執行職責而出錯,兩者是有分別的,前者是明知故犯,應可避免;而後者(紀律部隊)是很難避免

      亞Q

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    15. That's fine. "疑似醉駕情況"的論點是有人提出以支持警員無罪的。我立場是用上也沒幫助。
      現在你說兩者不同, 即是需要收回"疑似醉駕情況"。
      那麼回到原點, 有的是官判結論有罪, 暫沒有其他。
      B'J

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    16. B'J

      匿名 (下午1:06)用醉駕做例子比較啫,不需要收回論點。重點是澳洲研究:連續一周睡眠不足,反應能力實質所指是情緒和行為不受控制至什麼程度? 匿名 (下午1:06)可提供相關資料或更權威的研究支持其論點。B'J你可提供更權威的研究推翻匿名 (下午1:06)的論點。且看誰的專家研究更權威?

      亞Q

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    17. 睇你發文目標係乜,各舒己見、FYI, 當然乜都得,唔係人身攻擊粗言穢語便可留低,離題標少都不會刪。
      此留言動力發展及我個人是從法律原則去討論。
      例子收不收回無所謂,只是一個寫法。簡而言之例子無效,因為根本性質、情況,各方面都不同。
      你有心的話,可以根據該報告又好例子又好作為材料從新整理好,才作討論。
      澳洲講過乜?夠用以推翻七警案?冇人知。連匿名1:06提澳洲研究都只是「嘗試跳去酒駕」式幫補一下。
      B'J

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  7. 唔,幾好,辛辛苦苦幾十年,一夜回到七零年。

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  8. Re:2017年2月23日 上午3:33

    其實作為行外人,我都唔係好明白
    我見7警同曾蔭權兩個case都係唔認罪,都係30個月做起點
    7警就扣左6個月,曾蔭權就扣左10個月
    其實果d求情因素扣減幾多,係咪無特定標準的?
    同埋令我諗起,如果犯法果個係我媽媽(家庭主婦),無社會貢獻,咁咪好蝕底?

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    1. 講到尾個官係有酌情權,Ian McWalters 試過睇完求情信之後扣咗40%刑期(PG),太stringent咁定個標準無咩意思。

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    2. 同意。只要不極度偏離就無話可說。陳官以三十個月作量刑起點, 也沒有案例依據, 我話三年亦然。

      QS醫生, 我亞媽無讀過書, 對社會沒有甚麼貢獻, 但也沒有作奸犯科, 唔使求情、所以無蝕底。

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  9. 重之,胡仙案、包大叔姪女案、阮道雲兒子案、馬大炮偷盜案等等都令人感覺仙法界無王管,法庭好像世外桃源。是時候要檢討、改革。行大陸法亦不錯,等人大釋法啦。

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    1. 其實胡仙案,係律政司決定不起訴,同司法機構完全無關……

      批評當然無問題,但批評前事實一定要搞清……

      W

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    2. 阮雲道個仔是律政司容許撤控/簽保的, 馬大狀偷胸圍經審訊後定罪, 上訴駁回, 申請上訴至終院也不批, 關法官乜事? 大律師公會容許他再執業的。不能甚麼都入法官數。

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    3. 唔緊要啦,而家係要借個勢打殘佢,你睇城大班友加埋政府粒聲唔出你就知佢哋想點

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    4. 無錯,我是指成個仙法界,不單指法官。

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    5. 649續
      為何心虛、對號入座。

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    6. 2:00的留言不是用了「法庭好像世外桃源」這描述嗎? 胡仙案連庭都無上過, 那世外桃源是別處了。

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  10. 胡國興曲解辯方案情 販毒男上訴得直需重審
    http://hk.on.cc/hk/bkn/cnt/news/20170222/bkn-20170222142137718-0222_00822_001.html

    值得找原文看看~

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    1. Here it is: http://legalref.judiciary.gov.hk/lrs/common/ju/ju_frame.jsp?DIS=108262&currpage=T

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    2. Thx~
      胡官似乎捉錯用神得好緊要...

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    3. (馬後砲, 睇報導) 只可以用先入為主、恰眼訓形容。
      (若親身在原訟庭) 如果有在現場考功夫真係唔錯。

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    4. 寫一篇胡官的黑材料,黃絲同藍絲都唔會鬧您,由肥牛案到最近兩單陪審團案。由他做bar申請人死chan wing sze v chau kin hung 1983 到上訴庭庭長的經歷,網媒應會轉載

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    5. 唔知佢有無曾經懷疑過:個defence case 係咪真係(如佢所想)o甘低能/唔合邏輯呢?

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    6. 日審咁多案, 確有很多"defence真係低能/唔合邏輯", 反應疲勞下, 又想發揮智慧化煩為簡, "直接了當"手段有時又無可厚非的。
      但呢單野廿歲仔坐廿一碌, 黃金人生, 真係要小心些嘛, 檢視一切假設、多角度考慮。照計睇到自己破綻。
      無原訟庭案詞、現場親身、全transcript, 唔敢下百分百結論。萬一當時真係好多枝葉、遊山玩水超出合理時間三倍又唔定, 不留神中了招。
      有時我都好戥法官呢行單審時的為難:不像其他行業, 可問同事/上司/行家畀下意見、解決唔識既問題、甚至叫下屬幫下眼, 不能!
      (善用退庭商議(動作太大)、招律師們上前討論, 非常非常有限。)

      安老, 我唔知胡官有無懷疑過, 但現場遊山玩水時另有48個項目低能/唔合邏輯, 淹蓋了上訴理由又唔定@@

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    7. 係o既一哥,小弟這次欠缺同理心,忘了易地而處。(看來我對胡官已有點成見不假)

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    8. 不、不! 安老短短幾句說話很有合理性, 牌面成立。
      我說的是另一個可能性而已, 反倒要長篇大論才表達出來。況且此可能性之下,「無曾經懷疑」仍然存在, 只是值得原諒而已。
      對胡官成見, 我也有, 以前留言表現過出來, 都是基於胡官轉行後所發出的聲音。

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    9. 不能叫有成見, 只屬對他的言行有意見。成見有bias, prejudice的意思。我對一個高級司法人員的質素、形象、言談、在公眾事務上的表現, 有一定的期望和要求。

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  11. 標少過往至今用了無數篇幅去說,因每單案件性質,和犯人的背景不同,加上法官個人考量和風格
    導致判刑經常不一致

    但作為一個小市民
    就是不想看見個別法官的個人考量和風格導致判刑不一致
    以至案件性質與個人背景等變數,其實大部分總結起來也是那十數樣,例如學歷,是否家庭支柱,個人品格等等,大多可以量化及條列化
    作為追求公平和開放的廿一世紀
    全部以條文形式條出來才是最合理

    又例如標少說的那個判刑manual
    現代怎可能還可以存在這種純內部文件
    難道警察可以不給內部指引予辯方律師

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    1. 這樣看好嗎?司法機構上載了所有判辭, 一般市民都可以登入網頁去閱讀, 然後自己理解, 法官為了方便工作而訂出的守則/資料並非武林秘訯, 都是從上載了的判辭挑出來的, 無必要供諸同好。你第一段所講是法官的基本常識, 只是這些元素的比重因人而異。

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  12. 還有黃汝榮案,已反影仙法內部問題嚴重賞罰無道、批評無道,投訴無道。若黃官所言屬實,則有人行為失當。何謂高人指點?這分明是一種不當用語、行為。若警察辦案用上相同手法,星斗市民如何是好?佔中分明被人利用,無人出聲,唇亡齒寒呀!

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    1. 我也為黃汝榮寫過幾篇, 盡了綿力。

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  13. 香港市民越來越不智
    如果有辱警罪只會增加警民冲突
    好簡單被截停查身份證如果警察先挑釁市民
    问候市民娘親 市民又還—句 那誰最蝕底?

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    1. 咁又係,如果警員先觸犯警例,引市民犯法,係有些蚀底。
      犯警例姐,有著数。
      B'J

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    2. 你可向警察投訴科投訴

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    3. 10:24
      贈你/妳几句
      敍述:我生囗 你死囗
      我打死你最多返去作章(寫報告)寫薯仔文(只英文)
      如果佢打市民或犯
      打完后如果你敢還手
      敍述:我而加告你袭警丶佢捕及搶槍
      去投訴10單8單都不成立。佢打人有技巧
      大力拍打你的頭部或打胃部驗傷都無用。

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    4. 那麼以後生命受威脅,千祈唔好搵"黑警"了,搵郭X傑果D人幫你啦...
      否則有事就叫警察,無事就叫警犬,精神好易出問題...

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  14. 而加最惨連大律師教支持,其实做得訴訟律師
    点解不懂双向性想法=(

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  15. Bill, what do you think of the allegations set out in the following article?

    http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/realtime/news/20170223/56342523

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    1. I can understand the sentiment, though some of the issues at the meeting could not be said to be the right approach.

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    2. May I ask whether the meeting was in contravention of the Public Order Ordinance as suggested by that HKU lecturer?

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    3. It does but I deliberately dodge the discussion because I don't see it is worthwhile.

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  16. "七警案:中國輿論舞劍,意在香港司法?"
    https://theinitium.com/article/20170224-opinion-yeungshan-policeoffences/

    --其意甚明,難得又有內應。

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    1. https://www.hkcnews.com/article/2088/中方有勢頭藉七警案收香港司法獨立

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    2. 以小事大以智
      當年芬蘭也禁止一切反蘇言論,就算芬蘭才剛剛被蘇聯侵略,搶奪領土
      一國兩制萬一真的終止
      是港人的弱智所造成

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    3. 程翔:慎防中共藉七警案「改造」香港法制
      https://theinitium.com/article/20170224-opinion-chingcheong-policeoffences/

      芬蘭化?咁要有陳國師嘅中港區隔先得噃。

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    4. 很多人佔中, 係自己選擇,唔怪得人,唔好轉頭又話係中共陰謀。從前係到講國際形勢、搏奕、國家近代歷史、發,道德價值理念,無人理會認同,唯有激使國家,因為唔講法律理念,國家每次釋法都係幫到香港,再釋法破局亦未嘗不是一個好辦法。

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  17. 被告唔認罪, 但係有悔意 = 公正??

    講完

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  18. 如果“有意圖“的因素,並非指佔中期間或淋液事件,而在“暗角“內發生,法官是否已考慮?

    因為不懂,所以請教?

    小光

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    1. 不清楚你的問題。你所指如果“有意圖“的因素, 是否指七警有意圖打曾健超? 從案情看, 一定跟淋液有關, 因為曾是淋液後被拘捕繼而被打的。這是從案發經過的合理推論。

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    2. 杜官判辭第676段:

      676. Tsang was not carried direct to where the coaches and cars were parked for processing. Instead D1-D6 carried him to the opposite side of the substation, the north side, away from the road. As seen from the TVB assault footage as soon as Tsang was dropped on the ground the assault immediately started. The only inference to draw is that D1-D6 took Tsang to the opposite side of the substation, from where the coaches and cars were parked, to assault him. This is discussed later when considering the issue of joint enterprise.

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  19. 標少,多謝回覆

    因只看了新聞上的報道,見各方均將佔中,淋液,暗角事件一并討論

    在“曾“案,曾提及警方有別於一般行動,拘捕人員未必直接全程處理被補者

    而“七警“案,法官仔細看了錄像,能分別七人,亦能分別第七人,最後出現,而最先動手,但七人並非被淋液者,亦非拘捕人員

    如果說暗角內,有某些事情發生,而觸發事件,但除了曾給予口供,無其他人作証,法官是否需要考慮其他因素,有點不明白

    另想請問,七警全文判詞是否已上載

    小光

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    1. 200多頁817段的判辭, 連結在此: http://legalref.judiciary.gov.hk/lrs/common/ju/ju_frame.jsp?DIS=108134&currpage=T

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    2. 的確冇講量刑原因,只講要相對重判,完全跟許文泰案有商確,因為涉及以權謀私,7警應歸入行為失當

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